Why I want Ageia to succeed

Ageia PhysX PPU may not change the way we play or add any immersion like good acting, story and good dialogues (all which Doom 3 lacked compared to System Shock 2) but we don't know that yet! I believe a PPU can add thousand times more excitement to a game than a regular GPU can.

- The lack of a real write-back method on the GPU is also going to hurt it in the world of physics processing for sure. Since pixel shaders are read-only devices, they can not write back results that would change the state of other objects in the "world", a necessary feature for a solid physics engine on all four counts.

- Another interesting issue that AGEIA brought up is that since the Havok FX API, and any API that attempts to run physics code on a GPU, has to map their own code to a Direct3D API using Shader Models then as shader models change, code will be affected. This means that the Havok FX engine will be affected very dramatically every time Microsoft makes changes to D3D and NVIDIA and ATI makes changes in their hardware for D3D changes (ala DX10 for Vista). This might create an unstable development platform for designers that they may wish to avoid and stick with a static API like the one AGEIA has on their PhysX PPU.
http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=225&type=expert

This is PC gaming. We buy expensive upgrades because we like to feel the improvements. Its like tuning a car, just better hehe. We get all the new game technology first like 3D-games (Doom), 3D accellerating (GPU), 3D audio etc. We have communities. I have an Xbox and my friend a Playstation 2. Yet we only play PC (windows grrr) games when hes visiting, Starcraft, UT 2004 online, Quake 1 and 2 coop, Quake 3, Freelancer coop/online, Battlefield 2, Serious Same 2 coop, System Shock 2 coop etc.



We have no idea what can be concieved if the game engine is hardware accellerated. The Ageia PPU is higly programmable and we don't know yet what parts of a game can be accellerated and enhanched. I hope the Ageia PhysX PPU become part of DirectX and this GPU-as-PPU dies out. The GPU didn't just offload the CPU, it added new possibilities. NVIDIA and ATI obviously doesn't want the community to shift focus from GPU to PPU and discover the GPU is only fillrate, fancy texture effects and antialiasing. NVIDIA and ATI doesn't wanto sell less, business must grow. But I would hope they would release a real PPU instead of this GPU-as-PPU.

If I want tetris I go Consol, if I want new experiences I go PC. OK A bit trolling I am I guess but you get my picture.


However the Ageia PhysX PPU may not be that good either, there are some pauses issue when a big explotion goes off in CellFactor, and isn't the PCI bus already saturated with online gaming and soundcards?

And the Ageia solver is broken. I don't know what that means I just want the best possible solution for physics and games for the PC not any VHS vs BetaMax pls.

So if PCI is a problem let the PPU do only Gameplay physics en let HAvokFX do the Fire and forget eyecandy Physix.
Graw uses Havok(CPU) and PhysX(PPU) on top

So Game ? uses HAvokFX and PhysX

only the ppu can accelerate interactive physics so if anybody goes killing ageia while im not looking they are going to pay with their lliivveess!! lol.however i do believe effects physics is best done on an ati gpu.

I want them to succeed too; someone needs to cater to the $70 mouse/ $40 mousepad crowd.

i don't get the random UFO Screenshot in your post. Mind explaining?

delete

Personally this whole ATI vs Havok vs Nivida vs Ageia physics thing is not going to be good for anyone. It reminds me of Glide vs Open GL before Direct X really came into its own. I hope that Microsoft incorporates physics in Direct X 10a so we don't have to worry about which game runs what type of physics device. I really doubt Ageia will be able to suceed until that happens.

why is it not good. there was first OpenGL but for Professional CAD/CAM and 3D modeling. Fire GL 3D labs Card from $5000,- in a Workstation. More aimd at geometry pushing instead of pixel pushin.
Then there was 3DfX with there Voodoo and glide. Somewhere in the line when voodoo tooks off some Crossplatform fanatics use OpleGL for Game rendering and it becomes a second standard API flavor and DirecX3d is comming around to. The 3D game accerator market is evolving. Till Now DX10 on horizon and a R600 unified shaders. Are the result now from those pioneers step of 3DFX.
It all started with Glide Voodoo combo expensive then on release and only for the hardcore gamers with a high budged. Not much to choose from.

Ageia P1 and PhysX API same thing a new Hardware component comes with a native API for direct support. Havok FX is running behind just like DrectX so it takes time. In the end the latest Voodoo are supported by openGL en directX drivers GLide died the card not.

PhysX API is the katylasator of this new Hardware market. With out it Graw wil do nothing without it.

Direct PhysX and GPU with Physics optimasion could with DirectX11 and GPU DX11 hardware that support DirectX11 Physics API to accelrated it in hardware.

"Personally this whole ATI vs Havok vs Nivida vs Ageia physics thing is not going to be good for anyone."
It to early to early competiton from a other Componet market of GPU. Ageia is just started. 3dFX had made it when the competition comes in.

This early competition makes the audience wait and see how it unfolds instead invest in a platform that might not make it.

It holding the revoltion back. There is no Physics market yet. But ATI and nV can take that over. So much for the gameplay PhysX. Maybe in DX12. Or When CPU have some special Co Pro units on die. In 2010

Because the PC gaming market, lacking in both story telling capacity and a complete range of game types really needs enhanced physics for more barrels and boxes flying around...which will not fix the current problems, right?

Am I missing anything? Oh wait, no, I'm not.
What a complete waste of money and time.

How totaly wrong.

Originally Posted by Tutelary

Because the PC gaming market, lacking in both story telling capacity

Some games need a good story others not. Depends on genre and aim of the game. Like pure online. Or a immersive story often a single player mode.

and a complete range of game types really needs enhanced physics for more barrels and boxes flying around

Physixs is not Barrels and boxes That's one small thing Physics can add to.Physics is a lot more. That it can be diveded in two major feature groups effect and gameplay Physics.

...which will not fix the current problems, right?

Those problems where there always sinds game developing started. It a matter how a Dev with publisher picks it up or screw it up. There are good and bad games and a lot in the middle. You just have to choose the better ones.
So that's no problem you can't buy them all so you pick often the ones witch are the best to you.

Am I missing anything? Oh wait, no, I'm not.
What a complete waste of money and time.

If money is a problem and time then don't play games and don wast a computer on games.

The problem is Games are becoming large scale software enginering. the dev are moving this way. Game becoming more complex.
DC and Mo Physics adds a lot to this complexity.

The devs must find a way to put it to good use. They must find a new and compeling
Gameplay with gamplay Physics. Effect Physics is no problem. Some will sucseed a lot not.

I didnt need junior jimmys rundown on things hes read elsewhere, but thanks. The fact is that compelling physics as a gameplay device is so far down the road that buying an add in card right now is a complete waste. Until physics solutions are ubiquitous its simply going to be meaningless in the marketplace.

You can read what you want and regurgitate it like a good little drone all day and it wont change the fact that the marketplace SUCKS. Games on the PC are almost completely FPS games or MMORPGs now. Occasionally you get an RTS. The thing missing from the market, variety, is not going to be changed by the introduction of physics cards.

You're backing the wrong horse.

One thing you have to see Tute, is that the the PC game market is a free market. Successes and failures will dictate the games available. Wonder why there are FPS's and MMORPG's dominate? They're good and successful. Sure there's room for good games of other genres...but name a recent one. Not that easy huh? And you have to realize your taste and what you think of as good won't do jack squat. Majority rules here.

Variety. What kind of game do you want? Action/adventure? Puzzles? Let's take 2 fairly recent games that I liked. Half Life 2 and An Act of War. FPS vs RTS. Half Life 2 was fun and very successful. AOW was fun but not as successful. Why? Variety isn't the problem. It's a problem that plagues every game. Replayability. With HL2, you can get stuff like CS or other mods plus the new add on episodes coming out. Same with MMORPG's. You can keep playing them. WIth AOW, you finish and then what..uhh...hmm...play online? Yea right...expansion? Maybe... I'll add one more. The new Tomb Raider. It looked good and was fun...for about 6 hours. Then what? Get Lara a new swimsuit? The game just ends there. But the FPS and MMORPG and a certain RTS named Starcraft still go on strong. It's all about replayability and multiplayer. Bottom line, don't blame the marketplace. It doesn't make games that suck. If you're distasteful of the successful games on the PC, go get an Xbox or something. Sorry but them's the breaks. The problem with variety boils down to the consumers and the majority have spoken. The games you seem to want suck, except to you, so let there be FPS's and MMORPGS. Seems like you're backing the wrong horse..crappy and/or unsuccessful games.

But back towards the topic. I agree physics is useless right now. Even 3d acceleration had better support when it first came out. Why Aegia didn't make a game that showcases the best they have to offer I don't know. They seemed to have some decent resources to build those cards and just hang on to them. Hire a team, license and engine and show us what physics can really do. Not some more debris or some demo. It's not about being ubiquitous. It's about being useful.

if your raggin on PCI because its full... well i still dont see how people could be claiming this.

1: 7 Slots, 4 for SLI, 1 for a porrly designed mobo, 1 for a sound card, that still leaves a slot. what more do you want?

2: a pci-e 1x ver PCB with an Ageia PhyX ppu on it is due to arrive shortly.

and i know this is gonna come up, as it has in several other threads... "the agiea PPU only uses a PCI lane (begin snotty voice here) and so it must suck because it doesnt use that much information and so im not getting my mummie to buy one for me and so im a stupid (end snotty voice here) effin person who needs to think before he posts on hard forum.

why does a 7900GTX need a PCI-e 16X lane. the answer, it doesnt. an AGP s754 with an atholon 64 in it, with a Gainward 7800GS+ (the one with a G71 in it) was able to perform ON PAR with a PCI-e 7900GT system with the same processer only on socket 939 and with a dif mobo. i might add that the old SLI is another example. it splits on 16X lane into two 8X lanes, and each card can still perform to its 100% capacity.

ok, so why does a 7900GTX need a PCI-e 8X lane, well it only needs that much bandwith because those lanes have to haul massive textures around. thats why we need 512mb for a GPU and only 128mb for a PPU. a graphics card has to haul around X,Y,Z points, textures, and shading info around on that bus, a PPU only needs to know about the X,Y,Z info. thats a fragment of the info, not just 1/3, but like 1/20. PPUs need much less information, they still make a massive impact on gameplay, but the info the need can be much smaller.

and imho, GPu physics and PPU physics arnt even in the same ball park, they dont even play the same sport. GPU physics is cool, but... quite frankly i dont think it gets much better then (the awsome) source engine. i luuuuve those physics. but you cant possibly compare throwing a nade into a pile of cans to watch them spray all over the place, to the abillity to set a roof on fire, and collapse the building.

i dont think the full power of a PPU is really recognized by some people. this can and will drastically change the way we look at videogames. that man holding a rifle on the right side of your screen will seem less like "that man" and more like "me (ie you)". if i was in a cold, ancient, temple engaged in a firefight with some terrorits (IE De_aztec) and someone was running across an old rikity bridge with a gun yelling and throwing flash bangs everywhere, i wouldnt shoot him. id pull the pin off my grenade and blow the supports to the bridge, watching him fall to his doom. or perhals blow up the old concrete just at the entrance to our side of the bridge to seal us off from him. these are things i might try to do if i was really fighting in this war. these are things i cannot simulate using the Couter-Strike: source rules. i think the abillity of a PPU has rikochied of many peoples heads.

p.s. wheres terra?

Originally Posted by TeknoZX

And you have to realize your taste and what you think of as good won't do jack squat. Majority rules here.

lets condense this
*blah blah blah*
"Majority rules here."
*blah blah blah*

Well guess what? The Majority has spoken then, as the console market COMPLETELY dominates the computer industry in sales. The PC market continues to downsize in available titles and variety. I ran a software store for 4 years, the amount of space dedicated to pc gaming has shrunk dramatically in the last several years. Major game stores (EB/Gamestop) arent even taking used PC games for credit anymore, wake up.
Adding a ppu in is not going to stop the erosion of the pc gaming market.

Originally Posted by Tutelary

lets condense this
*blah blah blah*
"Majority rules here."
*blah blah blah*

Well guess what? The Majority has spoken then, as the console market COMPLETELY dominates the computer industry in sales. The PC market continues to downsize in available titles and variety. I ran a software store for 4 years, the amount of space dedicated to pc gaming has shrunk dramatically in the last several years. Major game stores (EB/Gamestop) arent even taking used PC games for credit anymore, wake up.
Adding a ppu in is not going to stop the erosion of the pc gaming market.

Then you should know (being an uber software dealer) that all it takes is one fantastic title or feature that propels the pc gaming segment to the moon.

Originally Posted by MrWizard6600

p.s. wheres terra?

perhaps he wont show himself for a while now that his enemies have claim to GPU's being capable of gameplay physics... not that there is any software for it...

Originally Posted by SuperGee

How totaly wrong.

He's got a point. The gaming industry is stagnating. There's a severe lack of innovation and originality at the moment. And hardware-accelerated physics is not likely to change this.

What are you expecting to get out of it, exactly? It seems most people put destructible environments on the top of their lists when talking about what they want out of gameplay physics. Yet we saw this five years ago in Red Faction. Developers can do this right now, and they don't. Why is hardware acceleration going to change this?

Originally Posted by TeknoZX

Wonder why there are FPS's and MMORPG's dominate? They're good and successful.

That's just idiotic... You can't make a blanket statement that games in a particular genre are "good". The FPS genre has its fair share of steaming piles of shit. Probably even more.

You want to know the real reason that well-established genres dominate?
Because they look vaguely like something which has succeeded before, in the eyes of a publishing executive.

Half-life sells eight millon copies, and so Extreme PaintBrawl 4 gets the green light from some moron at Activision.
Yet it'd be near impossible to get a third-person RTS published, no matter how good it is, simply because there are no successful precedents.
Similarly, there is absolutely no way in hell EA would be publishing Spore had it not come from Will Wright.

Variety. What kind of game do you want? Action/adventure? Puzzles?

How about something you can't so easily stick a label on? Something which isn't cast from exactly the same mould as four hundred other games.
Games like Sacrifice. Thief. Deus Ex. Of course, I'm not asking for more games like these ones. I want games unlike these, or any others I've ever played.

Most of the best games ever created stood out by defying convention. And yet you're sitting there saying
If it's not an FPS, RTS or MMORPG, it sucks.

It's this kind of idiotic closed-mindedness which is keeping publishers in business while they suppress innovation and continue to churn out one mediocre rehash after another.

Most of the best games ever created stood out by defying convention. And yet you're sitting there saying
If it's not an FPS, RTS or MMORPG, it sucks.

It's this kind of idiotic closed-mindedness which is keeping publishers in business while they suppress innovation and continue to churn out one mediocre rehash after another.

Gaming sucks now, all I play is CS or WoW on occasion. Their are a few indie games out but many of the past games that were good are selling out to appeal to the 1337 d3wd idiots. Like how Medieval Total War 2 is going to have elephants with cannons mounted on them

Gaming does suck now, everything you get is repetitious FPS, RTS, and mmorpgs. Even the RTS games are losing popularity... the only games in that category that are active online really is anything from Blizzard.

Then you get the non stop clone MMORPGs, every last one being an exact copy of the last. Using "faction" pvp where you cant talk to people of the other side and other idiotic ideas.

I want to see a good WW2 flight sim released more often than just every 3-4 years, i want to see more good tactical games NOT released by just one russian company, and I want REAL RPGs not these Dungeon Siege/ Diablo clones.

Shitty hour long FPS eye candy only and no gameplay after that games are pointless to play. Why should I play bet on soldier if everyone plays CS 1.6 or Source? If I want a war story i'll watch Band of Brothers... shitty scripted linear gameplay shouldn't exist as a game.

Thief, Sacrifice, and Deus Ex which is mentioned should be what they are making, not this for 14 year olds whose moms buy them their computers only trash.

I want the PPU to evlove and see it change games, i think its like taking it to the next level.

I played GRAW on the 360 and thats what stands out the most in that game. There is cell factor which i want to see released and at the same time the PPU sorted with the coding.

There has been a lot of improvements already and i do think they are over the hurdle that they get playable rates.

The PC is best when each component does its duty and the workload is shared , so without doubt the PPU was needed and the future consoles are proveing this.

Also i doubt very much that we are going to lose the PPU by it going bankrupt because the reviewers are giving it a lot of publicty and the average enthusiast any given time will buy it cos he has nothing to buy at the time and ends up with a PPU because he knows its improved and he wants to take gaming to the next level.

Originally Posted by nooh

I want the PPU to evlove and see it change games, i think its like taking it to the next level.

I played GRAW on the 360 and thats what stands out the most in that game.

the 360 doesnt have a ppu.