Samsung ahead of Intel in 10nm tech

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WarpDrive

Limp Gawd
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Jul 19, 2014
Messages
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Wow, Samsung is manufacturing 10nm already?

Of course, no company has started mass manufacturing 10nm yet.

The PhoneArena article is a bit confusing. First it says that it will take Samsung 2 years to get the machinery to be able to mass manufacture 10nm. But then it says the Samsung Galaxy S7 and the iPhone 6S will have 10nm FinFET chips. Perhaps a bit of inconsistency in the article?

Anyway, with all things, we will believe it when we see it. I just hope that Samsung will remove all its bloatware from its smartphones. I'm just sick and tired of Samsung not fixing the software side of things... I seriously hope they get it right with the SGS6. I mean 14nm Exynos 7420 Octa Core is great news, but if their software still lags then that would be rather disappointing. I guess we'll see in a matter of days.

But for now, Samsung seems to be slightly ahead of Intel and years ahead of TSMC/Qualcomm.

In other words it's Samsung > Intel >>>>>>> TSMC/Qualcomm. The technological gap between Samsung and Intel is not much, whereas the gap between Samsung and TSMC/Qualcomm is huge.

http://www.phonearena.com/news/Skip...om-14nm-straight-to-10nm-mobile-chips_id66346
Skipping stairs - Samsung goes from 14nm straight to 10nm mobile chips!
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http://blog.gsmarena.com/samsung-demoes-first-10nm-finfet-chip-ahead-intel/
Samsung demoes first 10nm FinFET chip ahead of Intel

Samsung scooped Intel and demoed the first 10nm FinFET chip in the world. The company had previously made eMMC storage and D-RAM chips at that node, but FinFET is the first step towards a 10nm Exynos chipset.

gsmarena_001.jpg


Samsung is already at 14nm and will be making the Galaxy S6-generation Exynos chipsets at that node, along with Apple’s new chipset. Qualcomm meanwhile is building the Snapdragon 810 on the older 20nm process.

Samsung envisions its 10nm chips to power more than smartphones, there are plans to put them in data centers and power the Internet of Things. The new chips will be more power efficient and produce less heat, vital for phones and other battery-powered devices (say, smartwatches).

Intel is on its way to 10nm too and has said it expects the first chips in 2016. We’ll see if Samsung beats the old giant to the punch as having the better manufacturing process has been a traditional advantage for Intel.
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considering the size of the parts in question it would be logical for Samsung to get there first...
 
I wouldn't count them as first before they've scaled up to mass production. Let's not forget how many technical delays Intel ran into getting 14nm out in mass quantities...
 
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WarpDrive said:
Agreed.

In other news, Samsung is saying that there is not technical difficulties in minimizing semiconductor technology to 5nm.

I guess they're just saying though. I think it's highly likely the first 5nm FinFET chip will also come from Samsung unless Intel wakes up.
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It is also worth keeping in mind that Samsung's so called 14nm process is inferior to Intel's. Samsung isn't using 14nm features for everything, most notably their interconnects are still at the 20nm process node. This increases power consumption vs. Intel which is using 14nm for their metal interconnects.

So I would not say that Samsung is ahead of Intel yet. They are simply using an inferior process that has allowed them to seemingly be ahead.

AnandTech said:
While this isn’t comparable to Intel’s 14nm process due to the use of a 20nm metal interconnect, there are some density improvements in areas that aren’t gated by interconnect pitch. While transistors are an area where we can see significant improvements to clock speed and power consumption, the metal interconnects can influence performance as well due to power dissipated by resistance in the interconnects, in addition to limitations on clock speed due to RC delay. This means that Intel continues to hold a significant process lead, as reducing interconnect pitch is exponentially more difficult past the 20nm node as resistance and capacitance issues increase dramatically.
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Anandtech is pro-Intel so it could just be BS. Historically, Intel's move from 28nm to 22nm to 14nm hasn't been that significant but merely incremental and connected standby is still work-in-progress because 32nm Exynos is still far superior in this regard. Plus, it hasn't translated well for Intel's mobile SoC. We'll see if the new Intel 14nm mobile SoCs are any better.
 
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mi7chy said:
Anandtech is pro-Intel so it could just be BS. Historically, Intel's move from 28nm to 22nm to 14nm hasn't been that significant but merely incremental and connected standby is still work-in-progress because 32nm Exynos is still far superior in this regard. Plus, it hasn't translated well for Intel's mobile SoC. We'll see if the new Intel 14nm mobile SoCs are any better.
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As a computer engineer who has worked with VLSI designed and taped out my own chips I assure you the merits of smaller interconnects are not BS.

Intel's power consumption problems aren't process but architecture related.
 
Erasmus354 said:
As a computer engineer who has worked with VLSI designed and taped out my own chips I assure you the merits of smaller interconnects are not BS.

Intel's power consumption problems aren't process but architecture related.
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And boom shakalaka! Good job, erasmus!
 
Erasmus354 said:
As a computer engineer who has worked with VLSI designed and taped out my own chips I assure you the merits of smaller interconnects are not BS.

Intel's power consumption problems aren't process but architecture related.
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Yea plus their atom SoC's are the best out there for power consumption purposes.
 
Common sense says they're different TDP and thermal class so the comparison is invalid. Just like you don't compare server CPU with ultrabook CPU. Apple is in a rather large make or break disadvantage if Samsung decides to keep 14nm exclusive like AMOLED along with high speed UFS storage, low power DDR4, etc. At least long enough to demonstrate what real engineering, innovation and patents are.
 
Common sense?

What exactly is this HUGE difference of performance per core between a Haswell and a Broadwell at the same clock speed? Obviously Broadwell is slightly better, but not this big ridiculous assumption you're making.

I also have not seen Haswell laptops blow up due to the availability of the broadwell or Samsung GS5's burn due to the impending release of the GS6...
 
He wants to compare a tablet SoC with a phone SoC. They're significantly different TDP and thermal class along with battery size. To use the A8X in a phone with smaller battery requires node shrink. Intel, the only other 14nm player, isn't going to jump in and be Apple's white night because they're in mobile survival mode and ARM is a direct threat to their existence. It'll be interesting how this will play out from the sideline. My guess is Apple will be at a disadvantage for about half a year then Samsung will step in to bail them out before TSMC 14/16nm is up and running.
 
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mi7chy said:
He wants to compare a tablet SoC with a phone SoC.
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I didn't start the comparison. The first picture with geekbench scores has multiple tablet socs. I was just pointing out that that specific persons comment was comparing a quad core soc to a dual core soc...of course the multi-core score would be higher.
 
elzeus said:
I didn't start the comparison. The first picture with geekbench scores has multiple tablet socs. I was just pointing out that that specific persons comment was comparing a quad core soc to a dual core soc...of course the multi-core score would be higher.
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Plus, who reads benchmarks anymore?
 
mi7chy said:
He wants to compare a tablet SoC with a phone SoC. They're significantly different TDP and thermal class along with battery size. To use the A8X in a phone with smaller battery requires node shrink.
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Go to the source of that article. Here it is:
http://www.computerbase.de/2015-03/...ich/#diagramm-geekbench-3-integer-single-core

Look at the single core benchmarks of Geekbench in integer, floating point, and memory.

The A8 is still slightly ahead of the new Exynos in the single core performance, mostly due to being clocked higher, despite not being 14/16nm. Your whole entire focus on 14nm making such a difference by itself simply doesn't hold up. Signs still also point to Samsung building Apple's A9 chips with the 14nm process.
 
CHANG3D said:
Go to the source of that article. Here it is:
http://www.computerbase.de/2015-03/...ich/#diagramm-geekbench-3-integer-single-core

Look at the single core benchmarks of Geekbench in integer, floating point, and memory.

The A8 is still slightly ahead of the new Exynos in the single core performance, mostly due to being clocked higher, despite not being 14/16nm. Your whole entire focus on 14nm making such a difference by itself simply doesn't hold up. Signs still also point to Samsung building Apple's A9 chips with the 14nm process.
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Agreed.

14nm is much more efficient compared to 16nm and 20nm.

However it doesn't necessarily make it "more powerful".

Although the 14nm Exynos 7420 is much more powerful compared to the Snapdragon 810 or Apple A8. But 14nm alone doesn't explain everything.
 
This has already been predicted but here's the official news:

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/tech/2015/03/133_175177.html
Samsung seals big SSD chip deal with Apple

Posted : 2015-03-13 16:37
Updated : 2015-03-13 19:42

Samsung Electronics struck another major chip deal with Apple with an estimated monetary value of "billions of dollars," helping Samsung further strengthen its chip business.

The latest agreement is calling for Samsung Electronics to sell its latest solid state drive (SSD) storage devices using its V-NAND technology to Apple's new range of ultra-slim and high-end notebook models, two people directly involved with the deal told The Korea Times, Friday.

"Samsung Electronics recently agreed with Apple to provide SSDs using its latest three-dimensional (3D) V-NAND tech. The deal is estimated to be worth a "few billion dollars," said one of the people.

Samsung's chip factory in Xian, China, will handle the production.

While Samsung will start providing Apple with entire chunks of the requested SSD products, the shipment volume, however, is subject to change according to situations, he said.

The deal is the third of its kind and Samsung will be responsible for at least half of the production of mobile DRAM chips to be used in upcoming iPhones.

Apple has also enlisted Samsung to handle 80 percent of the production of the A9 chipset to power new iPhones, pushing Taiwan's TSMC back to the secondary position in the highly profitable mobile application chip business.

"Samsung's SSD products with 3D V-NAND technology offer a significant performance boost in performance and endurance as compared to its predecessors, making them ideal for use in high-end notebooks. Samsung is the only company to mass produce the products currently," said the other people.

Unlike DRAM chips, SSD is based on NAND flash technology. The 3D NAND is an upgraded NAND flash technology. NAND chips are used to store data inside all digital devices from smartphones to TVs, even after the products are switched off.

Samsung Electronics' spokesman in Seoul declined to confirm the agreement as it doesn't comment on client-related issues.

Conventional hard disk drives (HDD) are rapidly being replaced by SSD as Samsung, which is the world's top memory supplier, is heavily promoting the sale of SSD products.

"Client SSD attach rates in notebooks, including ultrabooks, were up significantly last year and we see further growth ahead. We expect hybrid HDDs and SSDs to capture an increasing share of storage units in PCs," said Bernstein Research's senior analyst Mark C. Newman in a recent report.

The people said Samsung's 3D-NAND SSD storage technology makes it more suitable for general consumer application in key devices such as notebooks and gaming PCs.

The agreement comes a few days after Samsung Electronics' memory chip division head Kim Ki-nam told local reporters that the first quarter will also be good in terms of profits.

Its chip business reported 2.7 trillion won in operating profit last year, accounting for 51 percent out of total operating profit that Samsung Electronics earned.

Samsung's logic-chip business, which manages processors, has returned to the black since early this month. Analysts say the division will report about 1 trillion won operating profit this year, while the company's memory chip business is expected to get more than 12 trillion won in profits, helping the semiconductor division see a record in annual profits.

[email protected],
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Good news for Apple but the low volume they move only get them secondary treatment. Lenovo, on the other hand, seem to get the hot stuff first such as fanless Core M, blazing fast Samsung SSD, etc. four to six months before Apple.
 
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