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Nvidia Responds To Witcher 3 GameWorks Controversy, PC Gamers On The Offensive
- Thread starter erek
- Start date
Nvidia: "See guys? They're going to fix the drivers, just give them time."
AMD: "They need time to fix their drivers?! It should work fine on DAY ONE, they are the worst company ever. Their drivers are so awful."
Let's rewind to last week when AMD said they needed time to fix their Project Cars driver.
At least this confirms our suspicions: GameWorks sucks for everyone, including Nvidia owners (Kepler, anyway).
One of the issues I see is that when nvidia drivers suck, it's universally seen as an nvidia problem. When AMD drivers suck, for many people it's seen as an nvidia problem as well.
Like Project Cars. Doesn't run well on AMD? Clearly it was nvidia's fault.
And now even the company itself is making this their official explanation.
AMD drivers can suck for what ever reason, but when Nvidia releases day one drivers for Witcher 3 and a 290 is doing better than a 780ti and that 290 does not even have up to date drivers for the Witcher 3, something is wrong.
TaintedSquirrel
[H]F Junkie
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If my 280X matches the GTX 770 on day one for the same price (or cheaper, in most cases) I will gladly take 2 more years of performance enhancements leaving the 770 in the dust.
I'm not going to complain about GCN optimizations if it's scaling beyond Kepler. Same goes for the 290 vs 780. 290X vs Titan. So on.
"Catching up" is certainly not the phrase I would use to describe it.
There could very well be something wrong with Kepler performance in that particular game, though I'm not readily convinced that this was all some evil plot of a hand-wringing conniving CEO looking to force everyone into an update to Maxwell. But the point I am making is that you will notice that nobody is placing the blame for Kepler's performance issues at the feet of AMD.
Contrast that to the inverse. We're now at the point where a large part of AMD's issues are being blamed on nvidia. Not just from Random People on the Internet who should know better, but from company reps themselves.
Kepler problems in TW3 ==> nvidia's fault
GCN problems in TW3 ==> nvidia's fault
AMD problems in PC on Windows 8.1 ==> nvidia's fault
AMD losing money every quarter ==> nvidia's fault
people starving in Africa ==> nvidia's fault
There comes a point where people become desensitized to certain charges. AMD is getting dangerously close to flirting with irrelevancy here even in the GPU market.
Sadly both AMD and NVidia are starting to make PS4 look more and more appealing. AMD because they're excruciatingly slow with driver updates for new games, a problem amplified many fold if you're a crossfire user. NVidia because their cards seem to go to shit as soon as the next one comes out.
durquavian
Gawd
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Ok so I see a lot of posters going very far in both directions and very few hitting the bullseye. Here is how I see it:
1. Gameworks is a many fold issue:
a: Nvidia did what any company would do and many do given resources. Not a bad plan really. One way to ensure easy optimizations for your hardware is to create the software utilizing it. This I think most of can agree is not necessarily a bad thing, nor inherently evil.
b: But, and here is the reason for most others disdain: it is a closed software implementation. Therefore any other hardware manufacturer, AMD or Intel, can not openly optimize. Maybe in some cases the devs can but I don't see this happening from the goodness of their hearts, it will require funds. Also adds to the difficulty to release updates as well, case in point, Nvidia can easily release day one updates, it is their software, AMD or Intel can not, rather is not likely able to do so.
c: and much akin to (b), the fact it is closed. AMD tressfx, freesync/adaptive sync, and (fact still remains) Mantle were intended as opensource. Chances are they are geared toward AMD strengths but in the least Nvidia and Intel both can optimize with the same level access. ( Mantle can in broader now be considered completely open being it is the cornerstone of DX12 in its code. So lets forgo the semantics and arguing and move on.)
2: GPU benches:
a: There is some reason for concern when looking at the performance of Kepler against GCN and Maxwell. Before Maxwell Kepler was in stride with GCN. The hierarchy looked something like this: 290<780<Titan<290X<780Ti. After Maxwell, basically gaming this year we see: 780<Titan<780Ti<290<290X. Even the 7970/280x which was far behind the 780 now is occasionally its stiffest competition.
b: Reasons for this can range quite a bit from expected to dirty play. Maybe GCN is still got some headroom. We see with DX12 a major part of it was already in GCN because AMD foresaw an opportunity. So there is a possibility it is still gaining performance or in the least games are adding code that GCN can still handle well, but that brings up another reason... .
c: Maybe in Gameworks as well as other new titles, certain new coding, perhaps preparation for DX12 is oozing in, maybe not. But it could explain Maxwell and GCN moving forward where Kepler seems to be slowing down.
d: And then there is the evil factor. Granted we all hope it isn't the case but still a possibility. Nvidia is pushing Maxwell sales at the expense of Kepler. Have seen some posts on other forums that discuss that the whole tess issue was because Maxwell has far better tess capability over Kepler, 30% I think. If true AMD may not have been the ultimate target but even Kepler to get those upgrade sells. Could be an oversight, but there seem to be a few too many cases of this with Nvidia lately ie: 3.5Gb+.5Gb Vram 970.
e: Honestly this is a conspiracy theorists dream. We seem to be short of facts and have a whole lot of circumstantial proof.
So what we have here is another less than stellar release, although seemingly still great game. But we have to understand there are 3 sides to this story, yours, mine, and the truth. Hopefully we get the truth but I wouldn't hold my breath.
1. Gameworks is a many fold issue:
a: Nvidia did what any company would do and many do given resources. Not a bad plan really. One way to ensure easy optimizations for your hardware is to create the software utilizing it. This I think most of can agree is not necessarily a bad thing, nor inherently evil.
b: But, and here is the reason for most others disdain: it is a closed software implementation. Therefore any other hardware manufacturer, AMD or Intel, can not openly optimize. Maybe in some cases the devs can but I don't see this happening from the goodness of their hearts, it will require funds. Also adds to the difficulty to release updates as well, case in point, Nvidia can easily release day one updates, it is their software, AMD or Intel can not, rather is not likely able to do so.
c: and much akin to (b), the fact it is closed. AMD tressfx, freesync/adaptive sync, and (fact still remains) Mantle were intended as opensource. Chances are they are geared toward AMD strengths but in the least Nvidia and Intel both can optimize with the same level access. ( Mantle can in broader now be considered completely open being it is the cornerstone of DX12 in its code. So lets forgo the semantics and arguing and move on.)
2: GPU benches:
a: There is some reason for concern when looking at the performance of Kepler against GCN and Maxwell. Before Maxwell Kepler was in stride with GCN. The hierarchy looked something like this: 290<780<Titan<290X<780Ti. After Maxwell, basically gaming this year we see: 780<Titan<780Ti<290<290X. Even the 7970/280x which was far behind the 780 now is occasionally its stiffest competition.
b: Reasons for this can range quite a bit from expected to dirty play. Maybe GCN is still got some headroom. We see with DX12 a major part of it was already in GCN because AMD foresaw an opportunity. So there is a possibility it is still gaining performance or in the least games are adding code that GCN can still handle well, but that brings up another reason... .
c: Maybe in Gameworks as well as other new titles, certain new coding, perhaps preparation for DX12 is oozing in, maybe not. But it could explain Maxwell and GCN moving forward where Kepler seems to be slowing down.
d: And then there is the evil factor. Granted we all hope it isn't the case but still a possibility. Nvidia is pushing Maxwell sales at the expense of Kepler. Have seen some posts on other forums that discuss that the whole tess issue was because Maxwell has far better tess capability over Kepler, 30% I think. If true AMD may not have been the ultimate target but even Kepler to get those upgrade sells. Could be an oversight, but there seem to be a few too many cases of this with Nvidia lately ie: 3.5Gb+.5Gb Vram 970.
e: Honestly this is a conspiracy theorists dream. We seem to be short of facts and have a whole lot of circumstantial proof.
So what we have here is another less than stellar release, although seemingly still great game. But we have to understand there are 3 sides to this story, yours, mine, and the truth. Hopefully we get the truth but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Yeah everyone has been blaming Nvidia recently for a lot of things. We can blame Nvidia only so far for the problems AMD is having, unless we see another anti-competitive suit in court. Aside from bringing competition to the gpu market AMD can do what ever the hell it wants.
I contend though, that some of the blame is rightfully placed. Who is responsible for Kepler? That must be Nvidia. When I bought my 780 an overclocked 780 could best a 290x. Everyone and their mother was telling me how good of a deal it was to buy a 780 or 780ti, and guess what, the benches told me that it was a good buy too. Now my 780, which I paid around $450 for, is shit, literally.
Who should I blame?
AMD because they are releasing drivers every day... that seems to not be happening.
AMD because they built a better card and my card is a pile of shit... not what I was hearing from everyone.
Everyone because almost everyone thought that, aside from 4k, Kepler was king... yeah they must have had no merit behind what they were saying.
Or I can blame the company that makes the cards, markets the cards, decides when to drop support for the cards... well looks like that is Nvidia.
So the lesson of this not so nice experience for me is to not listen to people and the praise or hate they put on a card, and NEVER buy a POS Nvidia card again.
The card is shit because it doesn't perform to your expectations in a particular game a mere week after it's been released? Even though nvidia has said they're working on optimizations?
The current going rate for "literal shit" these days is about $0. So are you willing to sell me your 780 for $0 (plus shipping)? I'll be happy to take that shit off your hands.
When Intel and AMD agree to license x86, then nvidia can look into open-sourcing GameWorks.
This is crazy.
Intel is creaming nvidia in one of nvidia's traditional revenue segments because Intel can make an IGP and use that leverage against nvidia. Nvidia needs to do what it has to do to stay relevant.
Maybe AMD should learn a lesson or two.
And about the closed-source stuff.
When I used to get on forums and say "Gee it sure would be nice if game devs would use open standards and open source technologies and all that good stuff so us Linux users would have some games to play..." Guess what the universal response was? "GTFO! Use Windows!"
"But I don't want to use Windows. I want to choose the OS that's best for me."
"You have a choice: use Windows. If you want to use Linux, that's your fault; you get no games! If you want to game, you need Windows!"
Apparently that applies to OS, but not GPU vendor?
So now that people are complaining about closed-source GameWorks while getting a woody about DX12 I'm going to make a call for consistency:
Game devs need to move over to OpenGL or GTFO. Boycott proprietary, closed frameworks like DX12. And let's see AMD get off their duffs and make an OpenGL driver that isn't a steaming pile, rather than focusing all their efforts on the proprietary, closed, secret, non-licensable, single-company controlled DirectX.
primetime
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Just wait till nvidia has 300 dollars cards that run circles around those $1000 dollar plus Titan X cards...only have to wait till next year at most lol
Cause nvidia will gimp those to make new salesNo, this card is shit because it has been getting considerably worse over time, it's just now that I got to see the magnitude of what has been happening.
Actually they were selling shit for money and people bought it Link
so even shit is worth something. I can tell you did not buy a titan or 780/780ti.
Edit: I was planing on using this card until 14nm, so in my opinion I over paid and got a shit card out of it. But if anyone feels differently and thinks this card is pure gold, MSI gaming Gtx 780, you can trade me your loud, hot card 290 or 290x that comes with shit drivers for this gem I have in my rig.
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Just wait till nvidia has 300 dollars cards that run circles around those $1000 dollar plus Titan X cards...only have to wait till next year at most lol
Yeah who wants to buy a new card that's better than an old card? Maybe that's why AMD just rebadges all their old cards to look like new cards. Their fans don't want newer faster cards.
At least AMD fans don't get fucked by top quality drivers that take away performance from your card.
Hmm AMD had issues with performance drops with new driver releases in the past as well. Sometimes happens. This is just one driver set for nV, I remember with the with the 4xxx series AMD had three sets of drivers consecutively dropped performance on multiple games.
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Better that than what Nvidia is doing. That 780ti is smoking the 290x in any new game, oh wait a second it's not. What's that I heard you say? AMD does not release drivers, then how did the Titan/780/780Ti get so bad. Must be magic, I just wish the trick was played another sucker and not me.Yeah AMD dodges that bullet by simply not releasing drivers.
That is great to hear, I am just wondering if after every driver they released a specific card or cards got worse and worse performance? And I am not talking about old cards or switches in NM I am talking about relatively new cards in a very similar 28nm.
So now the 290X is smoking the 780ti is every game. I would love to see these benchmarks. Please do share.
AMD is grasping for straws these days. It's like 3DFX all over again. The end is nigh.
I think both next-gen consoles going over to AMD forced Nvidia to go all in on GameWorks exclusives...they probably thought that this was the only way to compete and they were right...I thought most games would be better optimized for AMD cards but the complete opposite has happened...AMD had the momentum back in 2013 when it seemed like every major AAA title was being sponsored with AMD's Gaming Evolved (Tomb Raider, Bioshock Infinite etc)...the next-gen consoles also were released then as well...but then the bottom suddenly dropped out...ever since then the only major AMD sponsored game has been Alien Isolation
It is dependent on what changes they are doing to the driver, maybe they are looking for more stability and some of the optimizations done in the past need to be undone, and reworked.
Edit: also if the 7xx and 9xx are using the same code base, because the architecture is similar but different enough that optimizations for one might affect the other adversely.
So now the 290X is smoking the 780ti is every game. I would love to see these benchmarks. Please do share.
AMD is grasping for straws these days. It's like 3DFX all over again. The end is nigh.
Go look at any new games 4k benchmarks, check out that Wicther 3 latest AAA title etc... etc...
I don't give a fuck as to what AMD is doing. I want to know why the fuck Nvidia is releasing drivers that make cards run worse than they did and worse than they can.
Well then whose door do I need to kick in to get drivers that are optimized for the 7xx series?
I was told Nvidia was the driver King where are my drivers?
Both companies have good drivers, AMD as of late hasn't been updating their drivers as fast and AMD has never been as good as nV with 0 day drivers, but that was/is because of their release cycle and probably because of resources. One of nV's strong suites has always been drivers.
AMD didn't push for better driver support till the 9700, it was ATi back then. ATi is a much older company then nV, they should have had more experience with drivers and graphics hardware but again they didn't for what ever reason have better driver support.
Exactly.
I had a choice a year or so ago.
780 based card or 290 based card.
I listened to the guys around here and went with 780.
Right now, I am sorry I went with 780.
Does not feel good to get fucked up the ass like this with no Vaseline.
How evil is it to purposely gimp your own product that people have already payed you for to try to force them to buy more from you?
Pretty fucking evil.
Hell, I can't even think about selling it now on FS/FT cause everybody knows now that Nvidia is purposely fucking the card over. Who in their right mind would buy it for any kind of decent price.
I agree that the 780 should not be as good as the 980. It should be below the 970 as well. But below the 960??? Getting hammered by the "supposedly" inferior last generation AMD cards???
Again AMD drivers are not coming out fast enough etc... etc...
Nvidia's strong suit has always been drivers. Where are the optimized drivers for the 7xx series? Why is my card getting worse and worse FPS compared to the competition after ever driver release?
I want those drivers that are Nvidia's strong suit. Where can I get them for my 780?
I would rather ring the alarm bell when I smell smoke than ring the alarm bell when the 7xx series is burned to the ground.
Edit: In project cars the 780 is slower than a 960. Then the Witcher 3 came out and I get more surprises. I can't wait for any new game, it's like gambling maybe my card will suck maybe it will suck a little.
Araxie
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not really.. I was somewhat raging when i saw my 280X outperforming my 780 and playing at 780TI levels.. that's just sad..
Nvidia has always been very good with supporting previous gen cards with their drivers...of course you can expect their primary focus with drivers to be on current gen Maxwell cards but I think the issue with the 700 series in Witcher 3 is limited to the game engine...my GTX 580 lasted for years and performed well even in recent games...I bought a 970 a few months back and I'm hoping it lasts me another 2-3 years...it wouldn't be good business policy to force everyone to upgrade every year
Nvidia owns about 80% of the market. They can do what ever they want unless some one calls them out on it. If there was a big enough shit storm I would get to hear Jen-Hsun Huang tell me how the drop in performance on the 7xx series is a feature.
I will defiantly keep my eyes open but something tells me they are open for disappointment.
Excuse me for quoting my own post, but:
Witcher 3 and Project Cars aside for the moment, there are 2 other games in which the 960 comes within 10% of a 780 -- COD:AW and Far Cry 4.
Perhaps it's worth finding out what (if any) these 4 games have in common that result in Kepler not performing up to par.
Wouldn't this be more constructive than slinging mud at each other? Thus far we have 4 games in which the 960 comes dangerously close to the 780 (COD: AW, Far Cry 4, Project Cars, The Witcher 3), and to the best of my knowledge these 4 games each run on different engines. If we can figure out what it is (or what particular settings) that's causing Kepler to tank, perhaps we could either find workarounds, or just turn down/off those settings as long as there's not a significant drop in IQ.
That is just the tip of the iceberg, how many games is the 280x beating the 780?
My point is that the Kepler series is getting worse and worse.
Edit: And the 280x is a 7970 released January 9, 2012, that card is beating a GTX 780 which was released on May 23, 2013. Tell me about how old hardware should run slower than new hardware again.
I want the 780 to be better than a 7970! Is that too much to ask?
It should be at least 20% faster than 960 (and that's indeed the case for most other games in TPU's testing). Dunno if I can give an exact number, but somewhere within 10-15% of 970 at least.
Araxie
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but not forced by nvidia because they want that way... GTX 780 should be on pair with the 290.. and 780TI trading blows with the 290X.. but we have a trend of games now where the 280X is performing better than the 780? that's just crap how old its the 280X/7970? man almost 4 year... nvidia always do the same with each past generation.. they support with drivers yes, fine, but no with driver optimization to improve performance.. that's why after having at least 3 cards of each nvidia generation i've decided to pass from maxwell
I need to see some actual evidence that nvidia is making performance worse over time for Kepler.
Like driver #1 is faster than driver #2 is faster than driver #3, where #3 is the latest in the series, etc.
And I think we need a bigger sample size than four games, two of which just came out.
Like driver #1 is faster than driver #2 is faster than driver #3, where #3 is the latest in the series, etc.
And I think we need a bigger sample size than four games, two of which just came out.