Has anyone seen this yet? (Windows piracy checks)

[sitheris]

http://www.techworld.com/applications/news/index.cfm?NewsID=4102

Thoughts?

[S1nF1xx]

Yep, I posted a thread on this when it was first announced.
Here's the thread
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=860527

My general feelings are torn between it sucks because of all the mindless drones that will be out there spewing viruses everywhere, and the right that MS has to protect their investment.

I feel bad for the people who have their "friend that knows all about computers" build them a system and the idiot uses a pirated version of Windows on it. They don't know, and they'll pay for it.

However, MS has the right to do this and I back their policy. If you didn't pay for it, you shouldn't receive support for it.

[Ranma_Sao]

Security patches are exempted from the program to prevent that scenario.

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

[Spaceninja]

They are going to allow security patches, but from what I understand anything extra like Media Player, and DirectX you will have to verify. I downloaded DX9 for a friend the other day, it wanted to verify, I told it to skip since I was in a hurry and didn't do anything when I installed it. So like everything that M$ makes, it only 1/2 works a 1/3 of the time.

[ninethreeeleven]

I like how they will sell you it at a discount if you choose to.

So let me get this straight, Got to BestBuy pay $199 for Windows XP. OR got to [insert torrent site here] download Windows XP, install and get caught, but be given the opportunity to buy it for $99. Tough choice.

It makes piracey a wise investment. :rolleyes:

[Komataguri]

I like how they will sell you it at a discount if you choose to.

So let me get this straight, Got to BestBuy pay $199 for Windows XP. OR got to [insert torrent site here] download Windows XP, install and get caught, but be given the opportunity to buy it for $99. Tough choice.

It makes piracey a wise investment. :rolleyes:


The OEM version of XP Home is 99 bucks anyway, Hardly getting a deal there :rolleyes:

[jamesrb]

The OEM version of XP Home is 99 bucks anyway, Hardly getting a deal there :rolleyes:

Yeah, but how many people pirate Windows XP Home? I am going to assume that most people running pirated windows are using either XP Pro or XP Pro x64.

I assume that if you do their half-price thing you are paying $150 for a full Retail XP Pro which is a good deal when you think about it. OEM versions are a hassle since internet activation is no longer allowed and they are tied to one computer. Since it would be violating their own EULA to ship the people OEM replacements without including hardware, I assume XP Retail would be the replacement

[jamesrb]

Also, I am not advocating any form of piracy, just trying to get a grip on this:

There are basically 2 ways to pirate Windows XP.

1. One way runs a Windows install that is not activated, and uses some hacks to make Windows think it is in safe mode thus letting it run indefinately.

2. The other way would be to use a Volume Licensing version and a VLK.


If I had to bet, Microsofts detection would only catch the people using method #1, since to the outside world, a machine running a VLK appears to be completely legit.

I don't guess I see this stopping more than a handful of copies.

[SJConsultant]

OEM versions are a hassle since internet activation is no longer allowed and they are tied to one computer. Since it would be violating their own EULA to ship the people OEM replacements without including hardware, I assume XP Retail would be the replacement

The changes in regards to OEM activation only affects the major PC vendors and not regular OEM discs you can buy from Newegg and the likes.

EULA's do not apply when requesting replacement media for defective or damaged discs.


2. The other way would be to use a Volume Licensing version and a VLK.


If I had to bet, Microsofts detection would only catch the people using method #1, since to the outside world, a machine running a VLK appears to be completely legit.

I don't guess I see this stopping more than a handful of copies.

However there are a list of known pirated VLK keys that have been leaked out to which MS can easily blacklist. How MS determines this is anybody's guess.

[RacerX27]

MS checks say that the VLK if not created by them is invalid. If one trys to use windows update now it makes one download the check software. Once that is run it checks the key I'm guessing against a known data base of valid MS generated VLK.

There are thousands of OEM keys. VLK keys are a much smaller number.

I would say most are using a VLK key thats invalid that have a pirated version. JMHO.

[jamesrb]

The changes in regards to OEM activation only affects the major PC vendors and not regular OEM discs you can buy from Newegg and the likes.

EULA's do not apply when requesting replacement media for defective or damaged discs.



However there are a list of known pirated VLK keys that have been leaked out to which MS can easily blacklist. How MS determines this is anybody's guess.


I was unaware of that activations was unchaged on normal OEM media...

As far as MS blocking the VLK's, in SP1 they did it by blocking PID's. The one they blocked knocked out 10 billion different keys, and has proved not to be effective..

[Rich Tate]

Not to also mention that there are proggies out there that will generate keys for XP. If it matches the number algorithm, then how exactly do those people get caught?

[RacerX27]

Not to also mention that there are proggies out there that will generate keys for XP. If it matches the number algorithm, then how exactly do those people get caught?

Valid key to install windows, no longer valid for windows update.

SP2 blocked all but -640- PID's from VLKs from what I understand. Those 'valid' 640s show up as invalid in the checks now.

[jamesrb]

Not to also mention that there are proggies out there that will generate keys for XP. If it matches the number algorithm, then how exactly do those people get caught?

They don't.

Unless like mentioned above Microsoft has a database of every key they have issued, and are able to check the 25-digit product key and crosscheck it. If they had such a database though, you must wonder why they didn't implement something like this in their existing activation routines.

[RacerX27]

Reasons this PC Failed
Validation Failure: Invalid Product Key
The product key associated with your copy of Windows was never issued by Microsoft.

Windows Genuine Advantage Results Report

[jamesrb]

Windows Genuine Advantage Results Report

i guess that answers that.... was this with a VLK?

[br0adband]

hehehe

I can't help but laugh because I predicted this would happen just under 3 years ago. The original posting I put up on the Net got me a few emails from lawyers for Microsoft but I left it up till my Prodigy account died.

Thankfully, through the magic of terabyte server farms, www.archive.org has a copy of it (and the email page, "The Rant," where I go over some of the emails people were sending me because of my article) that you can find here:

Windows XP and Service Pack 1: Why the keygen won't help... for long :) (http://web.archive.org/web/20021004101801/pages.prodigy.net/br0adband/Windows_XP_and_Service_Pack_1.htm)

Funny to look back on that article and see my prediction finally came true, albeit way off the schedule I expected which would have been much sooner.

Have fun, always...
Paul

One note: Since that article was written primarily focusing on the "original" keygen released for XP, the "XP Key Rediscovererererer" or whatever it was called, another keygen was released. The latest keygen, the 4-in-1 version, does create keys that still work. Microsoft will probably just have to find some method to stop it someday.

[wpeng]

Isn't this just a tug-o-war between key crackers and Microsoft? Whenever an anti-piracy measure is launched, it seems there is always a counter within a couple of weeks.

[DizzySHK]

is this XP only for does it apply to 2000 as well?

[’m‚³‚ñ]

Maybe we should all switch over to Linux and use emulators?

[br0adband]

is this XP only for does it apply to 2000 as well?

Since Windows 2000 doesn't have Windows Product Activation, the answer is simply:

No.

Paul

[DizzySHK]

hm..i was about to build and setup about 8 computers for a small trading company(they have no clue on computers). I think i'll just pick up some w2k's for them :p

[ray4389]

The OEM version of XP Home is 99 bucks anyway, Hardly getting a deal there :rolleyes:

I'm not going to lie I got a pirated version of WinXP Pro. I refuse to pay $200 for soemthing when Linux is free....

I would pay $50-80

And I do use linux some. But everthing runs on Windows :rolleyes:

But I have no problem forking out cash...if they lessen the price. I will most likely ask for longhorn for christmas when I get to college. Until then fuck M$. They always try to screw me over anyways. I bought alot of their products back in the day and what did I get---buggy as shit pieces of crap.

Also I pirate music because $20-25 for a cd is ridiculous. I'll continue supporting my local bands with ticket sales, CDs bought, and of course if there is a band I pirate and I fall in love with and listen to all the time then yes I will buy their cd if I see it on sale. Not liek I need it but just to support them.

Out of my 13gb about 60% is not pirated. Alot of it is actually from what my friends give me...that they pirated. I don't complain aobut freebies. About 70% of my pirated music is from friends. Of my pirated music I usually own 1 album from the artist 30% of the time.

But once again I will not pay $200 or even $100 for windows. $80 or less. I work at a coffee shop at minium wage, my cars engine burns oil, I need gas money, I love taco bell, and I don't see a reason to buy windows now that it will be replaced soon.

[S1nF1xx]

Security patches are exempted from the program to prevent that scenario.

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

Ahh, good deal. Then I say good job MS, keep up the good work.



This posting is provided "HOWEVER YOU WANT" with 6 warranties and confers the right to remain silent.



j/k
LOL, sorry man, I know they make you do it, but I just had to. :p

[jamesrb]

Q:
Do all Windows users need to validate, or is validation limited to particular versions of Windows?


A:
Validation is required for all genuine Windows downloads on Microsoft Download Center and the Windows Update service for users of Windows XP and Windows 2000 (client, not server). Security updates are accessible to all users via Automatic Updates. Genuine Windows downloads are available, without validation, to customers running Windows 98, Windows ME, Windows Server 2003, and Windows NT 4.0 with Service Pack 3. Genuine Windows downloads are not available for older versions of Windows (Windows 95, Windows NT 4.0 with Service Pack 2 and earlier), and non-Microsoft operating systems.

http://www.microsoft.com/genuine/downloads/faq.aspx

Looks like Windows 2000 is out of luck, which is odd since it never required activation (in the US at least)

[’m‚³‚ñ]

I agree; MS is asking WAAAY too much for XP.

Maybe I will get a Server with 5 lisences for XP Pro.

The sad, sad thing is, 99% of my music came from CD's I bought. I don't share my music on the internet. I cannot use CD's, I rip them ot my PC and listen to them there. Yet, the stupid RIAA is attempting to prevent me from doing that? Since the 'anti-piracy' protection on CD's was announced, I haven't bought a SINGLE new album. I bought some old albums available since before it was announced. I hope people just stop buying CD's alltogether and the RIAA just goes away. :rolleyes:

[tuffgong]

If I were Microsoft, I would do the same thing. I think as sales increase though, they should start lowering their ridiculous prices. $100 for Windows XP Pro Retail would be good.

Not enough that I paid almost a grand to build my new system.

[PaHick]

I just checked Windows Update.....i failed...lol. Wasnt expecting to pass though either so it wasnt a shock. Pretty much everything you would need to download can be found in other places besides microsoft.com .Too little too late I think. I mean I dont understand how they are stopping it. Just say you have a pirated version, you order your free SP2 disk from them for free, all the security updates are still available....what does it do besides tell you the key isnt valid?? I already knew that. I dont need to activate, so I can install on however many pc's I want. What did this accomplish? Maybe im missing something.

[tuffgong]

I'm sure they're going to straighten this out and start preventing other web sites from distributing their files...but then again there will be other "unauthorized websites" that will trump them.

In the longrun, I do believe they will sell more copies this way though.

[Ruffy]

Well I failed with my generated Key. I built a vlk image, generated a key and used that.

Guess i have ot dig out my legit copies and activate.. AGAIN

Doesnt really matter since im changing hard-drives soon and reinstalling. But I hate going legit as I end up having to reactivate several times a year and it always ends up with me having to make a damn phone call

[PaHick]

I'm sure they're going to straighten this out and start preventing other web sites from distributing their files...but then again there will be other "unauthorized websites" that will trump them.

In the longrun, I do believe they will sell more copies this way though.

The updates will always be available through microsoft.com. IT departments dont go through Windows Update to update their systems. So whats in place to tell them im not an IT manager grabbing some files to deploy in my department? Theres always a work around.

[jamesrb]

anybody know if this affects Windows XP x64? I didn't see it mentioned anywhere.

EDIT: I almost said that if they wanted this to sell more copies, they would have to have it de-activate the Windows. but I guess that anybody that is determined enough and has the know how to download and install a pirated version of windows probably could care less about this key check.

I was just thinking about when the last time was that I actually went to windows update. I know it hasn't been in at least six months. I know all of my XP CD's are slipstreamed with SP2. If I would take the time to look, I probably have install files sitting on my hard drive somewhere for WMP 10, .NET Framework 1.1 (sp1 slipstreamed), numerous MS Antispyware betas, MSN Messenger 7, etc. If I could bring myself to stop using IE6, all of the hot-fixes become meaningless anyways.

[skyeandangus]

I wonder if this copy of Windows 2000 from college is legit? It came from the IT dept., yet doesn't require a key or anything. It has a windows logo, but I was never given a key for it. hmmm...

[The Donut]

$100 or even $200 for Windows XP is hardly "too expensive". Especially for something that you use virtually 100% of the time that you are on your machine.

A previous poster stated very clearly "Everything runs on Windows XP" well, if that's the case and your argument was that Linux was free, then the cost is somewhat justified being that "Everything runs".

Fact is, $200 for a functional OS that (despite what some of the MS haters say) is a reasonably stable operating system is certainly not a rip off.

Also, to one of the posters on the first page - to obtain a "Discounted" Microsoft operating system because you obtained a piracy one, you must have purchased a machine with a pirated operating system installed. You can't simply download one, install it and then claim to get a discounted price.

Frankly, while Windows 2000/XP has it's fair share of bugs, it does alot for you. I rarely have a problem on my machine that I chalk down to it being a "Windows" problem, it's either third party software, hardware or, on occasion, my mistake. However, I am aware before you flame me, that Windows 2000/XP does have problems / bugs, call it what you will. But frankly, an operating system designed to work so flawlessly on such a vast array of hardware is bound to - and it does an excellent job at it.

All the people that spout "M$ sucks!~~oneone!!!@11!" are merely showing the rest of us how naive and immature you can be. So, take a real world look at what Windows actually does, rather than focus on the few errors you get after you overwrite one of your system dll files to install your custom FBI login screen, only later to find out it was designed for Service Pack 1 and your using Service Pack 2, and now you get errors when your system boots, which is obviously a Microsoft problem because they, you know.. suck.

[ccotenj]

I'm not going to lie I got a pirated version of WinXP Pro. I refuse to pay $200 for soemthing when Linux is free....

I would pay $50-80

And I do use linux some. But everthing runs on Windows :rolleyes:

But I have no problem forking out cash...if they lessen the price. I will most likely ask for longhorn for christmas when I get to college. Until then fuck M$. They always try to screw me over anyways. I bought alot of their products back in the day and what did I get---buggy as shit pieces of crap.

Also I pirate music because $20-25 for a cd is ridiculous. I'll continue supporting my local bands with ticket sales, CDs bought, and of course if there is a band I pirate and I fall in love with and listen to all the time then yes I will buy their cd if I see it on sale. Not liek I need it but just to support them.

Out of my 13gb about 60% is not pirated. Alot of it is actually from what my friends give me...that they pirated. I don't complain aobut freebies. About 70% of my pirated music is from friends. Of my pirated music I usually own 1 album from the artist 30% of the time.

But once again I will not pay $200 or even $100 for windows. $80 or less. I work at a coffee shop at minium wage, my cars engine burns oil, I need gas money, I love taco bell, and I don't see a reason to buy windows now that it will be replaced soon.

i think you should go to your local grocery story, announce that you aren't going to pay 3 dollars for that box of pop tarts, but would pay 1.50 for it, and if they don't sell it to you for 1.50, try walking out the door with it... :rolleyes:

thief... someday, when you go interview for a real job, make sure you tell your prospective employer about your ideas... i'm SURE they'll step right up to the plate and hire you...

[lxuan1]

$100 or even $200 for Windows XP is hardly "too expensive". Especially for something that you use virtually 100% of the time that you are on your machine.
.
I eat everyday, doesnt mean food should be more expensive...
lol, but i'm fine if its under $200
spent $7000+ on ms software last year....4 copies of winxp, 1 win2k3 server,+ database...

[darktiger]

Just dont have a pirated copy of windows and you will be fine....

[S1nF1xx]

I'm not going to lie I got a pirated version of WinXP Pro. I refuse to pay $200 for soemthing when Linux is free....

I would pay $50-80




$89.95 too much? It usually goes on sale for ~$83 ish.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16837102141

Might want to do some research before going on a rant that makes you look foolish.

[skyeandangus]

How much for a legit license? Number only? I use only legit windows XP in my builds, but I cannot even come close to matching the Dells and Gateways for price. The difference in price often come down to the $92 for an OEM copy of XP Home. I sell based on parts quality and service and cross my fingers. I'm sure the big box makers get a bulk discount on OS pricing, as they only use recovery disks, and not full versions. The cheapest license I can find on 2000 is $89, and I can't even find an XP version. I'd like to be able to slipstream a copy of XP, use it on all of my installs, and just give my customer the sticker on the side. Is this even possible?

[S1nF1xx]

I'd like to be able to slipstream a copy of XP, use it on all of my installs, and just give my customer the sticker on the side. Is this even possible?

It is, but you'd still have to buy an OEM license for each machine so it wouldn't save money. You can buy OEM licenses in 3 and I think 5 packs which will save you a couple bucks.
If you're building machines for other people, you can't pirate the OS, it's not fair to them, especially now. So let them know they're paying a little extra for a quality customized build.

And yeah, the OEM builders get Windows for a HEFTY discount. I bet they don't pay more than $20-$40 per license. That's 100% speculation though, but judging by the prices they can sell their machines for, I doubt it could be much more than that.

[hulksterjoe]

It is, but you'd still have to buy an OEM license for each machine so it wouldn't save money. You can buy OEM licenses in 3 and I think 5 packs which will save you a couple bucks.
If you're building machines for other people, you can't pirate the OS, it's not fair to them, especially now. So let them know they're paying a little extra for a quality customized build.

And yeah, the OEM builders get Windows for a HEFTY discount. I bet they don't pay more than $20-$40 per license. That's 100% speculation though, but judging by the prices they can sell their machines for, I doubt it could be much more than that.

Because I work for one of those oem's I can tell you it isnt 20-40 but royaltysoftware is less then the OEM software , The reason behind that is many. All of the systems that we send out are WHQL certified. That means that each and every system has gone thru testing and approval from microsoft. This costs $$ for each test and everytime a "new" processor or other component comes out we need to resubmit to even be able to incorporate that component. This takes ALOT of time and energy, but there are advantages, like marketing funds etc. A huge difference in the cost that I can provide a system for and what you the small builder can is also based on volume, We buy 4 thousand+ cases a month= volume discount. maybe 10k sticks of memory= discount etc etc etc etc.. its getting and having these discounts and alot more that allows us to compete with Dell, If you've got a customer or someone asking you to build the $399 dell with monitor, just send them on their way you cant compete,and neither can I. They build them in China for pennies on the dollar and it just isnt going to happen. As it happens my company dosent even sell direct to end-users but only to resellers, so not only do we manage to build the box and mark it up a few $$ but we sell it to another company that marks it up again and they still beat Dells cost.

you can beat dell on cost depending on your market

[qbert95]

There is a work around for this..

Open IE -> Tools -> Manage Addons -> Disable WIndows Genuine Advatage

[skyeandangus]

It is, but you'd still have to buy an OEM license for each machine so it wouldn't save money. You can buy OEM licenses in 3 and I think 5 packs which will save you a couple bucks.
If you're building machines for other people, you can't pirate the OS, it's not fair to them, especially now. So let them know they're paying a little extra for a quality customized build.

And yeah, the OEM builders get Windows for a HEFTY discount. I bet they don't pay more than $20-$40 per license. That's 100% speculation though, but judging by the prices they can sell their machines for, I doubt it could be much more than that.

I agree, using a pirated copy on a customer is theft, on the customer and on MS. But you should be able to buy the OEM number, and not the CD, then everyone SHOULD be happy. Right?

I've even heard if you change your motherboard and one other item, MS wants you to buy a new license, since you can build another computer with that mobo. I'll just have to use Windows 98 on the wife's computer, since I have a legit license, until I get a new copy of Home, "IF" it'll work on a Pentium II 350 with 256MB memory

(I know, I know, but she only does work processing and email on it, no need to drop another $400 on a new build, I'm waiting to upgrade my machine and give hers the parts, and a new copy of XP, or get XP64 and use my old copy on hers, though I can't tell if THAT is legal either...ARGHH!!!).

See the problem?

[skyeandangus]

There is a work around for this..

Open IE -> Tools -> Manage Addons -> Disable WIndows Genuine Advatage

I'm not seeing this on 2000 with IE 6...

[TheRapture]

I'm not seeing this on 2000 with IE 6...


Windows 2000 does not apply....

[Direwolf20]

So what exactly happens if you goto windowsupdate and they say you have an illegal version or key or something?

Does it disable your OS? Does it just not let you download updates?

[MoonUnit42]

Originally Posted by S1nF1xx
Quote:
Originally Posted by ray4389
I'm not going to lie I got a pirated version of WinXP Pro. I refuse to pay $200 for soemthing when Linux is free....

I would pay $50-80




$89.95 too much? It usually goes on sale for ~$83 ish.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...N82E16837102141

Might want to do some research before going on a rant that makes you look foolish.

Actually you might want to start by reading posts before you reply to them, he's talking about XP PRO NOT HOME. PRO can be found here:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16837116195

and it costs $210 shipped... now who looks foolish ;)

[Elian]

who gives a shit about these updates... the automatics still work... you can find the rest online...

I pirate winxp and i doubt i'll ever pay for any of their software

/thread

[Elian]

edit

[S1nF1xx]

Actually you might want to start by reading posts before you reply to them, he's talking about XP PRO NOT HOME. PRO can be found here:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16837116195

and it costs $210 shipped... now who looks foolish ;)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16837116203
$171.94 Shipped.

He still looks like a fool coming on the forums bragging about using pirated software and trying to justify it because "M$ charges too much."

Plus, most people don't need Pro, in most cases it's ignorance that drives them to believe Pro is better than Home.

Check and mate.

[Direwolf20]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16837116203
$171.94 Shipped.

He still looks like a fool coming on the forums bragging about using pirated software and trying to justify it because "M$ charges too much."

Plus, most people don't need Pro, in most cases it's ignorance that drives them to believe Pro is better than Home.

Check and mate.

S1n's right :).

[S1nF1xx]

who gives a shit about these updates... the automatics still work... you can find the rest online...

I pirate winxp and i doubt i'll ever pay for any of their software

/thread

//waits to see new workaround in latest bittorrent winxp image

Doesn't anyone read the rules anymore? :rolleyes:


(18) You will not discuss, suggest, engage, or encourage any ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES. Links provided to locations that deal with any such activity are also expressly forbidden.


Some people may want to brush up on them.
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=760666

[Elian]

edited it for your liking...i'm guessing it was that one line you didnt like...

[Susquehannock]

I just checked Windows Update.....i failed...lol. Wasnt expecting to pass though either so it wasnt a shock. Pretty much everything you would need to download can be found in other places besides microsoft.com .Too little too late I think. I mean I dont understand how they are stopping it. Just say you have a pirated version, you order your free SP2 disk from them for free, all the security updates are still available....what does it do besides tell you the key isnt valid?? I already knew that. I dont need to activate, so I can install on however many pc's I want. What did this accomplish? Maybe im missing something.

So what exactly happens if you goto windowsupdate and they say you have an illegal version or key or something?

Does it disable your OS? Does it just not let you download updates?

Microsoft Takes Piracy Battle to the Next Level

http://www.ecommercetimes.com/rsstory/44962.html

' ' >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The validation process does not collect any information that can be used by Microsoft to identify or contact the user. While all consumers using Windows Update will be required to validate their software at the Download Center, security updates remain available to all Windows users -- with or without validation -- via the Download Center or Automatic Updates.

>>>>> ' '

Seems to me those with pirated copies will still be able to use the OS & update for viruses, but nothing else.
Do those pirated copies come with SP2? If not I can see how that would be a deterrent as you won't
be able to update after the next install. Better start slipstreaming that pirated copy now boys. ;)

[PaHick]

Microsoft Takes Piracy Battle to the Next Level

http://www.ecommercetimes.com/rsstory/44962.html

' ' >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The validation process does not collect any information that can be used by Microsoft to identify or contact the user. While all consumers using Windows Update will be required to validate their software at the Download Center, security updates remain available to all Windows users -- with or without validation -- via the Download Center or Automatic Updates.

>>>>> ' '

Seems to me those with pirated copies will still be able to use the OS & update for viruses, but nothing else.
Do those pirated copies come with SP2? If not I can see how that would be a deterrent as you won't
be able to update after the next install. Better start slipstreaming that pirated copy now boys. ;)


Doesnt matter if those pirated copies come with SP2 or not. You can still order SP2 on CD from MS. The only pirated copies this is going to hurt is the ones who need to activate id think. If you have a pirated copy, and you have SP2, any new hotfixes can be downloaded on the net.What am I going to need Windows Update for that I cant download from the downloads section on MS?

[Susquehannock]

Are you saying a copy of SP2 can be had for free from MS? Didn't know that..
Most of my builds get an OEM version of XP(= $55), then install SP2 from the net.

After reading several articles & forum threads on this subject it seems to me all this is
targeted more toward illegitimate business users than private citizens.


' ' Bonnie MacNaughton, senior attorney for Microsoft, said the company estimates that more than one-third of all copies of its software are counterfeit, based on a recent joint report released by the Business Software Alliance and research firm IDC.' '

[hulksterjoe]

Are you saying a copy of SP2 can be had for free from MS? Didn't know that..
Most of my builds get an OEM version of XP(= $55), then install SP2 from the net.

After reading several articles & forum threads on this subject it seems to me all this is
targeted more toward illegitimate business users than private citizens.

oem xp home/pro for $55. show me where?

[Susquehannock]

There is a work around for this..

Open IE -> Tools -> Manage Addons -> Disable WIndows Genuine Advatage

You don't think that will actually work do you?

' ' The WGA validation process is designed to be quick and simple. On their first visit to the Microsoft Download Center, Windows Update or Microsoft Update, customers will be asked to participate in WGA. They will be prompted to download an ActiveX(R) control that checks the authenticity of their Windows software and, if Windows is validated, stores a special download key on the PC for future verification. The validation process does not collect any information that can be used by Microsoft to identify or contact the user.' '
http://www.hardwarezone.com/news/view.php?id=2125&cid=11&src=rss

[I(illa Bee]

I say, if you too cheap to buy XP, then use linux and deal with gamming on that...Dont want to pay $200 for an OS? deal with it!

I own the XP-pro on my main rig, but my 3 other...err.. looks like ill be loading Linux on the webserver and buying XP home for the other 2.

[Susquehannock]

oem xp home/pro for $55. show me where?

My mistake, not OEM and it's $60 now.

' ' Microsoft Windows XP Home

Windows XP Home Full Dell CD, Key,
(EULA) End Users License Agreement on CD' '

http://www.edirectsoftware.com/WindowsXPHome.html

____________________________________________________________ ________

Microsoft Windows XP Professional Full Version = $89
' ' Full Version (Will Not Act As an Upgrade)- Microsoft CD

PACKAGING: Packaging: New OEM Dell Imprinted CD / Key

Note: CDS are imprinted with a Dell Logo, but are installable and usable on any type of PC ' '
http://www.agsolutionspc.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=8
____________________________________________________________ ________

There you go. XP Pro for $89. That cheap enough for you pirates? ;):D

edit : unless of course there is something illegal about the Dell CDs above. In which
case please let us know.

[I(illa Bee]

ohh BTW: Me and a buddie might be makeing a bulk order of XP home or pro (not sure yet), might tally out say 15-20 bux cheaper.. if anyone wants in.

We are going to need 25 copies, the rest will be sold at cost, saves us all a few bux... this anyone will be intrested?

[PaHick]

Are you saying a copy of SP2 can be had for free from MS? Didn't know that..
Most of my builds get an OEM version of XP(= $55), then install SP2 from the net.

After reading several articles & forum threads on this subject it seems to me all this is
targeted more toward illegitimate business users than private citizens.


SP2 CD (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/updates/sp2/cdorder/en_us/default.mspx)

Order it instead of downloading, definately going to save you time. I know you didnt know about the CD, but if you build systems, why didnt you get the IT SP2 file and keep that on a disk so you can install instead of downloading all the time?

[hulksterjoe]

My mistake, not OEM and it's $60 now.

' ' Microsoft Windows XP Home

Windows XP Home Full Dell CD, Key,
(EULA) End Users License Agreement on CD' '

http://www.edirectsoftware.com/WindowsXPHome.html

____________________________________________________________ ________

Microsoft Windows XP Professional Full Version = $89
' ' Full Version (Will Not Act As an Upgrade)- Microsoft CD

PACKAGING: Packaging: New OEM Dell Imprinted CD / Key

Note: CDS are imprinted with a Dell Logo, but are installable and usable on any type of PC ' '
http://www.agsolutionspc.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=8
____________________________________________________________ ________

There you go. XP Pro for $89. That cheap enough for you pirates? ;):D


it better be, because if that isnt one of the most blantently illegal things I've ever seen..

Let me ask you something.. when was the last time you bought one.. Have you tried to activate it after feb 28th of this year. I'll bet if you did that you had to call because this is exactly the reason microsoft shut off all activation of windows systems via the internet for the major suppliers in feb28... Dells systems dont require activation since they are bios locked, same as the systems I build, but we are required to provide the coa sticker and disk anyways, well people would take these and resell them,

http://www.betanews.com/article/Microsoft_Closes_Activation_Loophole/1109293194

and since that web site isnt dell.. its 100% doing this, since you cant buy the coa and disks from dell

[ray4389]

$89.95 too much? It usually goes on sale for ~$83 ish.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16837102141

Might want to do some research before going on a rant that makes you look foolish.

I did not say $89 I said $80. That's almost a $10 difference. WHy not just say $100 that's only another $10.

Plus that's for home.

[Susquehannock]

Thanx for the lynk PaHick. Downloading is pretty quick here so it wasn't an issue.

No I haven't had to activate a new one since then hulksterjoe. Will be interesting to
see what happens next time.

[ray4389]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16837116203
$171.94 Shipped.

He still looks like a fool coming on the forums bragging about using pirated software and trying to justify it because "M$ charges too much."

Plus, most people don't need Pro, in most cases it's ignorance that drives them to believe Pro is better than Home.

Check and mate.

Me look like a fool. That will be the day. I have never had problems with my prirating cause I belong to special rings of very few people and never get caught. Most my stuff is owned by less than 2 people.

Wow M$ is coming after me now :rolleyes:

If they did disable my OS I can just use linux. I can get Linspire for $20. That's their highend version.

[hulksterjoe]

Thanx for the lynk PaHick. Downloading is pretty quick here so it wasn't an issue.

No I haven't had to activate a new one since then hulksterjoe. Will be interesting to
see what happens next time.


could turn into a big pain in the ass, especially if you build them for customers and they try and it dosent work.. a headache in the making. but like you said gotta wait and see

[S1nF1xx]

Me look like a fool. That will be the day. I have never had problems with my prirating cause I belong to special rings of very few people and never get caught. Most my stuff is owned by less than 2 people.

Wow M$ is coming after me now :rolleyes:

If they did disable my OS I can just use linux. I can get Linspire for $20. That's their highend version.



Originally Posted by The Hard Rules
(18) You will not discuss, suggest, engage, or encourage any ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES. Links provided to locations that deal with any such activity are also expressly forbidden.


You still look like a fool.

[PaHick]

Me look like a fool. That will be the day. I have never had problems with my prirating cause I belong to special rings of very few people and never get caught. Most my stuff is owned by less than 2 people.

Wow M$ is coming after me now :rolleyes:

If they did disable my OS I can just use linux. I can get Linspire for $20. That's their highend version.

Lol....you may not be a fool,but the way you word things make you sound like a fool. Like I said before, my XP Pro isnt legit. Reason I use it is because I dont have to activate, period. I have a legit copy of XP Home if they decide to somehow disable my OS, but until then ill continue to use it. I seriously dont think MS is going to disable anyones OS.

[Susquehannock]

You are absolutely right hulksterjoe, going to have to look into that.
I am just a small fry so there aren't too many rigs for me to worry about.

You still look like a fool.

Just what I was thinking ([H]ard rules). Today looks like that day huh S1nF1xx? The real question is, do
coconuts truely migrate? ;)

[skyeandangus]

Anyone ever even do a box using Linspire?

wow 5.0 for 21.95 OEM at newegg. Might be worth an experiment. Anyone know if it's a good thing for say, my parents computer?

I can't see how they make any money off of this, or at least enough to make it a good program...

[ray4389]

Lol....you may not be a fool,but the way you word things make you sound like a fool. Like I said before, my XP Pro isnt legit. Reason I use it is because I dont have to activate, period. I have a legit copy of XP Home if they decide to somehow disable my OS, but until then ill continue to use it. I seriously dont think MS is going to disable anyones OS.

I had an OEM version that came with a computer and it wouldn't pass the hardware change stuff and I called and they said I was SOL. So I hate M$ since then. That's why I resorted to a friend to help pirate a copy.

**EDIT My mom is worried now so she's buying me a copy of home from sams club. $99 Cheaper considering no shipping cost for me.

[hulksterjoe]

3 cheers for mom

[Milenko]

Here is another option.

All you guys in college, why don't you give your IT dept's a call.

Many of them provide PLENTY of MS software for FREE.

I just DOWNLOADED an ISO of XP sp2 for FREE, AND I got a LEGIT key for it, all from my schools IT dept.



Jim,

Thank you for downloading software from the UMass MSDN-AA site.

The software that you downloaded from the UMASS MSDN-AA Site requires an individual product key for activation. The key below can ONLY BE USED ONCE to activate a product. Our keys will work only with media downloaded from our site or the full retail version. They will not work for OEM (Vendor media that ships with new computers) versions of the media.

Because we have a limited number of keys, we limit each user to three keys per product. If you should need additional keys past the three, please be prepared to justify your need. You can request additional keys by contacting msdnaa@oit.umass.edu

For additional information (including how to burn a CD from an ISO Image), please visit our FAQ (frequently asked questions) at:
http://msdnaa.oit.umass.edu/nfaq.asp


Product Downloaded:
Microsoft Windows XP Pro

Key for a single activation:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[ccotenj]

3 cheers for mom

qft. maybe he'll learn something from mom...

then again... maybe not...

[jamesrb]

There is a work around for this..

Open IE -> Tools -> Manage Addons -> Disable WIndows Genuine Advatage

Ha, that actually got me through to Windows Update without validating.

BTW, I think the addons thing is only on XP SP2

[odoe]

I could care less about what anyone thinks about piracy or stealing music.
The rules (http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=760666) of this forum dictate, and I will quote it for the more dense in the crowd,
(18) You will not discuss, suggest, engage, or encourage any ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES. Links provided to locations that deal with any such activity are also expressly forbidden.

See that right there? That means you won't discuss about how much music you download or what software you steal. I don't care what you do, but don't talk about it here or you'll find your welcome will run out quickly.

Keep this thread clean.

[BobSutan]

Since odoe has already chimed in with the requisite rules enforcement, I'd like to chime in.

Well I failed with my generated Key. I built a vlk image, generated a key and used that.

Guess i have ot dig out my legit copies and activate.. AGAIN

Doesnt really matter since im changing hard-drives soon and reinstalling. But I hate going legit as I end up having to reactivate several times a year and it always ends up with me having to make a damn phone call

This actually brings up a good point: Activation primarily hurts the legitimate users, not the copyright infringers. DRM, gun contron, activation, etc only hurts the legitimate users--the "criminals" who don't follow the letter of the law are already finding their goods outside retail channels, and since it is the retail landscape where the restricted versions are sold....well, you do the math. Its serious food for thought and should not be taken lightly when deciding on whether or not to criple a product. Personally speaking, I'd let freedom reign before alienating my customers, which in my opinion is what Microsoft and the music industry (and the entire content producing industry for that matter), are doing en mass at the time of this writing.

[odoe]

Bob's right. It's not like the people that really want to steal it are going to be deterred. It just adds another layer of annoyance for legit users. A little inconvenience here and there is one thing, but add them all up and it can get pretty tiring.

[BobSutan]

Odoe hit the nail on the head. History will remember this as an age of technical futility and executive stubborness. They repeatedly make the same mistakes, shoot themsleves in the foot, and in the end just piss off the people that count the most: their cutomers. As for when this will end, its only a matter of when, not if. If the IT sector has tought us anything it is that when the point of dimishing returns is reached, or consumers adopt competing products that aren't as convoluted/restrictive, the industry will largely give up. Right now the battle is still being fought and there is no end in sight. This is mainly a result of two things: most consumers have yet to jumping ship to another competing product amd the DRM companies are still able to convice executives that speding $X for their product is better than the alternative of lost profits due to copyright infringment. The latter is getting harder and harder to claim as studies such as this come to light.

[Ice Czar]

Wow M$ is coming after me now :rolleyes:

no that would be me :p

you know Ive seen people on COPS that can't seem to avoid incriminating themselves
but I never really thought of them as geeks :p

normally youd just get a warning, but you see, all your slack is gone
and now you have to straighten up and fly right
enjoy the vacation, we all wants PICs when you get back :p

[QwertyJuan]

I have a "real" code that I use on my work machines(educational)... and it still seems to work fine... just for fun I ran a key changer, changed to a known pirated one, and it wouldn't allow me in to updates... NOW, when I went into IE and bloacked that ActiveX control like was mentioned, it let me in with no problems.... so this is obviously a workaround... I wonder how long it will take for MS to fix this bug??

Also, what kind of serial do I have for my educational license? It looks to me like is a VLK(according to the front of the CD I own) and some people are having problems with VLK's?? Does that mean mine might shut down? What if someone found out what mine was and installed it on their home machine, or even published it on the internet so that millions of people tried to use it??? WOuld a bunch of machines with that VLK make them shut it down?? Would they look and see how many licenses I have, and when I exceeded that, shut it down?? There is alot of variables in all of this.

QJ

[’m‚³‚ñ]

This is why I love dell. They print their CD keys on the sides of their PC's. I can get a potentially unlimited number of keys from the computers at work (I refuse to do this as I would get fired and fined, and I actually like where I work).

[Lost Ronin]

i got a question, i ordered a pc online 2 years ago and it came with a ligit copy of xp home, if i want can i install xp on my 2nd comp, will i still be able to use the same key? why not?

if i can only use the key on one comp at a time, can i change it on the 1st comp and use it on the 2nd? dont tell me im forced to use it on the comp it orilgionally came with?

[skyeandangus]

This thread is a good example of a monopoly with infinite power within its environment. We all will put up with whatever annoyances that Microsoft throws us LEGITIMATE" software users, because we have no other choice(Linux in not an option for my wife, or my parents, or especially my grandparents). I had to sit there for 5 minutes and let that darn validation program run, and fret and worry, EVEN THOUGH I KNOW DARN WELL THAT THE XP INSTALL IS AN OEM FROM NEWEGG, AND IT'S NEVER BEEN ON ANOTHER MACHINE!!!

Apple is losing out on millions every week that they refuse to port OS X to windows compatible PCs. I'm crossing my fingers and hoping that the move to Intel will let them see the endless market available to them right now, all they have to do is enter it. The world is screaming out for a good alternative to Windows, and Linux, while awesome, is just too geeky for the average user. If a consumer walked into best buy and had a choice of an HP with Windows or OS X, I bet 30-40% would walk out with OS X. I wait for Apple to see that the real money's in software, not hardware.

[SJConsultant]

This is why I love dell. They print their CD keys on the sides of their PC's. I can get a potentially unlimited number of keys from the computers at work (I refuse to do this as I would get fired and fined, and I actually like where I work).

That is a requirement for all system builders to place that sticker on the machine. Although the keycode is there, any attempts at using that keycode with a generic OEM install will result in a forced phone call to activate.

[ccotenj]

haven't those who are complaining about this figured out yet that the true villain isn't microsoft, but those who feel that "if i can get away with stealing, it's ok"?

whereas i agree it's a pita to have to do various activations, etc., i don't blame the "victim" (i.e. the corporation that is being stolen from) one bit... i blame those in the user community who feel that it's ok to steal if they can get away with it...

similar to the riaa, i have no love for microsoft... but i understand why they are doing it... if someone was taking money out of your pocket, wouldn't you attempt to do something about it?

and for those who say "well, it shouldn't cost that"... welcome to america folks... it's called "capitalism"... if you don't like it, i'm sure that the folks in china will welcome you with open arms, they need techies there.... :rolleyes:

[skyeandangus]

Anyone hear yet from someone who thought they had a legitimate copy that has been booted as illegal? All I've seen is complaints from illegitimate users, and what I'm worried about is problems for legitimate users. If this screens out ONLY legal copies, then fine, I'll put up with it. IF, however, they start adding RIAA/MPAA type antistuff to curb our fair use of software, then that is what we should really complain about.

[BobSutan]

i think you should go to your local grocery story, announce that you aren't going to pay 3 dollars for that box of pop tarts, but would pay 1.50 for it, and if they don't sell it to you for 1.50, try making a copy of it... :rolleyes:


Fixed. Doesn't have quite the same impact, does it.

Not that I condone breaking the law, but some laws in this country are in serious need of change/reform.

[qbert95]

You don't think that will actually work do you?

Do not forgot what company we are talking about here. I suggest you try it and laugh your ass off as you get passed their stupid validation by simply disabling it :D

[S1nF1xx]

enjoy the vacation, we all wants PICs when you get back :p


OMG that is just hilarious! :p

/sorry back on topic.

[PaHick]

Anyone hear yet from someone who thought they had a legitimate copy that has been booted as illegal? All I've seen is complaints from illegitimate users, and what I'm worried about is problems for legitimate users. If this screens out ONLY legal copies, then fine, I'll put up with it. IF, however, they start adding RIAA/MPAA type antistuff to curb our fair use of software, then that is what we should really complain about.

Maybe im naive, but just how would a legitimate copy not pass? As long as your key is in their Database, its legit and will pass ...right?

Maybe I should reword that....As long as your key is a legit key,and it is in their Database, you will pass, right?

[ccotenj]

Fixed. Doesn't have quite the same impact, does it.

Not that I condone breaking the law, but some laws in this country are in serious need of change/reform.

no, it read EXACTLY the way i meant it in the first place... however, even with your rewording, it has the same impact...

how would you like to change copyright protection laws? i'm curious...

[skyeandangus]

Maybe im naive, but just how would a legitimate copy not pass? As long as your key is in their Database, its legit and will pass ...right?

Maybe I should reword that....As long as your key is a legit key,and it is in their Database, you will pass, right?

I know my stuff is legit, I purchased it, and registered it with Microsoft. BUT, anytime there's a "or else" involved, I get nervous. You think big companies don't make mistakes!?!?

[blindingillusion]

I own an Acer Ferrari 3200 that was sent to depot for repair, When i got it back i wanted to install a fresh OEM Pro version on it with my OEM Pro key that came with teh computer. Acer had put their crappy hacked together version of XP on it, which i hate. I had done this once already and it activated fine. I went to do it this time, it accepted the key during installation, and when i tried to activate it gave me an invalid product key error. After setting on the phone and having to actually give Make, Model, and S/N to activate it wouldnt let me update. Back to the phones, and they eventually fixed what ever the hell it was on their side to let me validate and update.

There is your instance of a legit user being treated like a theif.

[Ice Czar]

(Linux in not an option for my wife, or my parents, or especially my grandparents).


I dont see why not, provided your administering (http://www.novell.com/products/linuxpackages/professional/tightvnc.html) it
SuSE \ Novell Linux w\ Sun's Desktop Environment is hardly different form the basic functionality of a Windows environment, granted if software needs to be installed youd likely have to do it, but that is probably a plus since youd spend less time "upgrading functionality" then most do cleaning out crap & malware.

Ive been recommending more "at risk" users employ Knoppix with a persistant home directory for basic surfing and messaging

in either case as long a basic surface functionality is the sole issue
(and really how many home users are playing w\ compmgmt.msc and mounting NTFS volumes as folders, ect) they do a bangup job of it. Besides they might actually read the help and start to learn about the OS (some windows users have been known to do this as well :p )

lastly you can get Grandma a penguin T-shirt for Christmas and she can showup all her freinds at Bingo with how l33t she is :p

[skyeandangus]

LOL good line...

I'd consider doingthat, but I've spent 10 years getting up to speed on Windows, and I'd hate to have to learn Linux now too..

Another thing to consider...I listened to TWiT yesterday(I highly recommend it). One of the guys said he uses Windows 98SE on a friend's computer. Why? The friend doesn't install anything, and just uses it for word processing and Internet. The idea is that it's 98 and not XP, so 90% of the malware/viruses aren't written for it specifically, and there is inherent safety(Sorta like a car without a computer in it, one less thing to break). I never had much of a problem with 98SE, other than new parts compatability, so it might be perfect for someone still using dialup and not gaming. AND, I have like 5 real licenses sitting around from dead boxes.

NOW, using old keys on new builds is legal, right!?!?! I mean, the old pentium II 266 is dead now, right?

[Susquehannock]

>>>>>>>>>
The world is screaming out for a good alternative to Windows, and Linux, while awesome, is just too geeky for the average user.
>>>>>>>>.

How true! We hear those screams every day.
Have always wanted to try Linux but was afraid of the learning curve. Perhaps I'll give Linspire 5.0 a try.

Do not forgot what company we are talking about here. I suggest you try it and laugh your ass off as you get passed their stupid validation by simply disabling it :D

Seems to me that would only be a "work around" if you had a legitimate copy to begin
with. If you failed the validation test first time around the key it leaves behind would reflect that.
Or am I missing something?

In any event ........ you all know this is yet one more step toward ESL, right?
Or, dare I say it? A subscription based OS. :eek:

[QwertyJuan]

Seems to me that would only be a "work around" if you had a legitimate copy to begin
with. If you failed the validation test first time around the key it leaves behind would reflect that.
Or am I missing something?



No, this actually works... I changed my LEGIT key, to a known pirated one, and BANG it locked me out of updates... THEN I blocked the activex control and BANG it let me in again... that is kinda funny that they would go to so much toruble, and have it soooo easily diabled.

QJ

[Susquehannock]

No, this actually works... I changed my LEGIT key, to a known pirated one, and BANG it locked me out of updates... THEN I blocked the activex control and BANG it let me in again... that is kinda funny that they would go to so much toruble, and have it soooo easily diabled.

QJ

^_^ very interesting. Yet another stellar move by M$! :rolleyes:

[HighwayAssassins]

Since odoe has already chimed in with the requisite rules enforcement, I'd like to chime in.



This actually brings up a good point: Activation primarily hurts the legitimate users, not the copyright infringers. DRM, gun contron, activation, etc only hurts the legitimate users--the "criminals" who don't follow the letter of the law are already finding their goods outside retail channels, and since it is the retail landscape where the restricted versions are sold....well, you do the math. Its serious food for thought and should not be taken lightly when deciding on whether or not to criple a product. Personally speaking, I'd let freedom reign before alienating my customers, which in my opinion is what Microsoft and the music industry (and the entire content producing industry for that matter), are doing en mass at the time of this writing.
QFT. Pirates get it for free, and dont have the pain of activating.

Remember when CS:S came out? I had the ATi Voucher so i got it for free. It was fun and all, but i really wanted the bots. Turns out the only people that were allowed to use bots were the people who hacked it, because whoever cracked the game enabled it. I always thought it was funny: either pay for it and have a pain in the ass, or steal it and get it for free, less hassle and all the goodies too...

its fucked up.

[Mr Mean]

So what exactly happens if you goto windowsupdate and they say you have an illegal version or key or something?

Does it disable your OS? Does it just not let you download updates?
It logs your IP/ISP then it has a record of who you are. Then they notify the feds to pay you a visit. Then you can download your updates.

[BobSutan]

no, it read EXACTLY the way i meant it in the first place... however, even with your rewording, it has the same impact...

how would you like to change copyright protection laws? i'm curious...

I'd begin the reform by restoring copyright protection back to what it was intended to be: incentive to create more products. If you lock up content for decades, who benefits? Not the public, that's for sure, and that was the whole long-term goal of copyright. By having a limited monopoly on some form of content it ensures that there will in fact be an end to the monopoly so the content's producer better create new/more content if they want to benefit. That's not the case anymore. Case in point, look at the "Happy Birthday" song.

In terms of America's future as a leader in the IT/tech sector, the writing is on the wall. Countries that don't play by our rules will quickly outstrip our ability to produce new and innovative technologies because our innovations will be locked up in court proceedings. This isn't just copyright, but for IP patents as well. Mark my words, it won't be long (as in it will occur during our lifetimes), America will not be the worlds top superpower if we allow coproations to keep this up. The best case scenario is that the tech my be owned by American companies, but it will still be foreign nations that will have the jobs producing it.

Right now America is in the middle of a coporate takeover of sorts that will eventually lead to her downfall, that is if we let it. Copyright and patents are a key focal point, but are by no means the only things that need fixed. I still believe it could all be turned around, starting with campaign finance reform and the restriction of corporate rights and their ability to influence lawmakers.

[Ice Czar]

I'd begin the reform by restoring copyright protection back to what it was intended to be: incentive to create more products. If you lock up content for decades, who benefits? Not the public, that's for sure, and that was the whole long-term goal of copyright. By having a limited monopoly on some form of content it ensures that there will in fact be an end to the monopoly so the content's producer better create new/more content if they want to benefit. That's not the case anymore. Case in point, look at the "Happy Birthday" song.

In terms of America's future as a leader in the IT/tech sector, the writing is on the wall. Countries that don't play by our rules will quickly outstrip our ability to produce new and innovative technologies because our innovations will be locked up in court proceedings. This isn't just copyright, but for IP patents as well. Mark my words, it won't be long (as in it will occur during our lifetimes), America will not be the worlds top superpower if we allow coproations to keep this up. The best case scenario is that the tech my be owned by American companies, but it will still be foreign nations that will have the jobs producing it.

Right now America is in the middle of a coporate takeover of sorts that will eventually lead to her downfall, that is if we let it. Copyright and patents are a key focal point, but are by no means the only things that need fixed. I still believe it could all be turned around, starting with campaign finance reform and the restriction of corporate rights and their ability to influence lawmakers.


damn fine post, I would point out that the "takeover" occurred a long long time ago however its just which industrial powerhouse had influence at what period of history and what "reform" measures where able to be pushed through by ambtious politians from time to time. A semi-functional system curbing the worse abuses but allowing the retention of power to be held by vested interests throughout the decades. (New England Manufacturing, Railway, Oil, Military Industrial Complex ect ect) Of course "who" is even blurrier in this day and age of multinational and conglomerate giants.

Microsoft is an exception, a "new" player that caught others nappin

[eeyrjmr]

http://www.boingboing.net/2005/07/28/microsoft_genuine_ad.html

already bypassed lol

[ccotenj]

yes, it is a damn fine post, and i don't disagree with much of it...

i would say that i would say treating employees as a global commodity (i.e. "purchase" the cheapest available worldwide, vs. internal to our borders) is a larger issue right now... because you are right... america WILL lose it's technical advantage because there is no incentive to being a techie...

that being said, i don't see how "allowing people to have your product for free" is an incentive to create more products... it actually is a disincentive, imo... i would say that you'd have a point if you said microsoft should be forced to sell it's "raw system internals" (for lack of a better term) to anyone who would like to develop a software platform based upon them... this would be similar to the telephone company being forced to lease their existing lines to startups... you wouldn't punish the inventor then, and you would allow innovation to flourish...

i couldn't agree more with the statement that corporations have an unduly large influence on lawmakers... or the fact that the takeover happened quite some time ago... it's just that we are seeing the results of it now (corporate fraud, willful destruction of the environment, ridiculous drug pricing policies, etc.)...

[Susquehannock]

Excellent set of posts I'd say. And I agree with just about all of it.

The gap between the "haves" and "have nots" worldwide is an ever widening chasm which
may never be bridged again. More "working poor" tha n ever yet the Govt keeps approving
legislation which seriously favors the corporate interests over the common citizen.

Many like to complain about Microsoft's monopoly in the OS war but it's a piss ant compared
to the power the oil corporations wield.

P. S. - Back when XP first came out talk about a move toward subscription based software
was all the rage. Any of you think Microsoft will attempt ESL again any time soon?

[Ice Czar]

not with a clear free alternative

[’m‚³‚ñ]

That is a requirement for all system builders to place that sticker on the machine. Although the keycode is there, any attempts at using that keycode with a generic OEM install will result in a forced phone call to activate.

Not on the XP Pro copies I have.

Probably going to buy a Dell server that comes with Windows 2003 and 5 XP Pro Corp. lisences.

Microsoft audited the high school I went to 4 times. The first three, they had us check every computer at the school. The fourth time, they had us check every PC AND they made us check for other software installed, MS or not. Immediatly after that, the school district cancelled a contract with MS for server software and immediatly switched over to BSD for the servers. It ended up saving the district over $2,000,000 in money, and MS almost about as much. The workstations and Teacher PC's all run Win 98 or 2000, but that's it now. We got fined $12,000 for having a PC running a copy of Win XP Home. That PC, and all software, including keys, was legally transfered to the school. The district refused to pay, and when MS threatened a lawsuit, the distrct threatened to join other companies/NPO's/government agencies in the anti MS suit that was happening at the time. MS never replied or pressed the issue again.

[zerosignal]

Here is my 2 cents on the various issues of product costs, activations, piracy checks, etc.

It seems to me alot of people are looking at these issues from very narrow minded points of view, not taking the big picture into account. I'll break these issues down individually.

1. Product Costs: Windows, in its many forms, from 3.1 up to XP has always cost between $100 and $200 depending on whether you bought the basic home edition or one with more features. Now, everyone knows that Windows 95/98/98SE contained alot of code not only from DOS, but also Win3.1. The same goes for Win2k/XP as they were simply modern version of NT4.0 with new code and better interfaces. I liken this to games in alot of ways. Take Everquest for example, the original game cost $50 and each of its however many expansions cost around $30 each. The expansion cost less because they were simple additions to the code of the first game, not entirely new. Granted, an operating system takes more development time and money than a game, but the principle remains the same.

Windows 3.1 cost say $150, and Everquest cost $50. In my opinion, all the various versions of Windows are pretty much just expansion packs. Alot of the code has remained the same, the basic function of the operating system has not changed. Microsoft simply looks at changes in technology and adds improvements in each version as needed. Suffice it to say, MS has never lowered the standard cost of Windows to the general buying public. Some of you may bring up the issue of "upgrade" versions of Windows, but I find that to be a irrelevant topic because the upgrades generally only work with the last 2-3 versions of Windows, not all the way back to 3.1. In effect, if a person has a valid copy of 3.1, I beleive it should entitle them to use upgrades as long as they wish, but it doesnt work that way.

Overall, I simply believe that Microsofts position as a market leader has made them complacent to their customers wishes. Whatever happened to "the customer is always right"?

2. I'll go over activations and piracy checks together since they are entwined.

When i said earlier that people tend to have a small minded view of this issue, I was referring to the fact that as far as MS is concerned, product activation play a much larger role than simply verifying if a copy of Windows is legal. As some posters above mentioned, product activation has the ability to delve much deeper into your system information than simply an activation code. Whether MS is using this ability to currently collect info on their customers is outside the point. After the recent news of MS buying/attempting to buy a major spyware company, it should be evident to all that MS is interested in much more than just val;id copies of Windows.

Another side to the issue of activation is the fact that a simple change in the hardware configuration of your system requires you to reactivate with Microsoft. This requirement is of course disabled in alot of corporate computers, as they change their hardware quite often. One of the perks of being buddies with MS.

Of course, this leaves hardware enthusiasts like us out in the cold. We tend to change hardware more often than anyone, and constant product re-activation is absolutely rediculous. Once again we come to the fact that MS cares more for its bottom line, than for it most enthusiastic customers.

Some people in this thread have tried to boil this issue down to: Paying for software = good
Pirating software = bad. It's really not that simple. Piracy has many sides; the "scene" does it to make their egos bigger, some people resell pirated software, but the majority of pirated software is the result of a simple case of Civil Disobedience. In the times we live in, where the individual has been forgotten in the quest for money and power, sometimes the only way to voice your opinion against a set of rules is to blatantly disobey them.

On the other hand, when i see a a company go out of their way to help their customers, as they should since we are their source of income, I will support them with as much of my money as i can.

[ccotenj]

geez...

1) ignoring for a moment all the stuff you are ignoring, $150 for 3.1 doesn't equal $150 for xp pro... why? inflation... the dollars don't go near as far as they once did... one might actually argue that in comparison to the $150 that 3.1 cost you, $150 for xp is a bargain.

2) rage against the machine paranoia at it's best (civil disobedience... please... :rolleyes: )

as far as MS caring more about the bottom line than their "most enthusiast customers":

a) yes. they do. it's called "business". if they don't care about their bottom line, their stock price gets whacked. the ramifications of your stock price getting whacked are many, and aren't really germane to this thread. but ignore them at your own peril if you are a publicly traded company.

b) from what i can tell from reading these threads their "most enthusiast customers" don't pay for their software to begin with... that's not a winning point for you there...

[Susquehannock]

>>>>>>>>>>

Another side to the issue of activation is the fact that a simple change in the hardware configuration of your system requires you to reactivate with Microsoft. This requirement is of course disabled in alot of corporate computers, as they change their hardware quite often. One of the perks of being buddies with MS.

>>>>>>>>>>

Exactly why the pirated XP Corporate edition is so popular.

[zerosignal]

ccotenj, i'll go over your various points one by one.

1. for your argument about inflation to be true, it would have to apply to all software and it simply doesnt. in the 1980's computer games cost rougly the same as they do now $40-50. if inflation played a major role in software costs, games would need to cost considerably more now in order to make the same profit. the fact of the computer industry is, production costs, and retail prices tend to decline. that is simply one of the wierd things about the computer industry. it comes down to an application of "moores law". as technology progresses, each generation of tech is not only more complex, but easier and cheaper to produce.

2. you can write off civil disobedience with a worthless "please..." all you want, but it's a fact of life in the modern age of big corporations and governments. Thoreau once said "the best government, is the one that governs least". if you want to convince me or anyone else otherwise please do it with an educated argument, not a "please..." As for Rage Against the Machine, for the most part they are liberal reactionaries that i rarely agree with considering im a conservative.

4. Let me just start off by saying that I am a capitalist, and will always beleive it to be the best government yet conceived. But, I also beleive that no form of society is perfect, and the love of money can be just as bad as not having any.

Yes, a business has to watch their finances and profit margins to stay competitive, but the fact is that Microsoft and many other corporations have become greedy. They could easily operate on a slimmer profit margin while still making money, but instead they decide to take their customers for as much as they can because they are in a position of complete power over the average computer user. This is what i was referring to when i said they care only about profit, not their customers. Fact is, my family owns a legitimate copy of Windows 98SE, but i personally refuse to buy another of their products until they change their ways.

Early in this countries history, businesses understood that they existed to provide a service to the customers. Of course they had to make a profit, but the customer still came first. It is a thin line to tread but it can be done, because many other companies have done it long before MS came to be. It's simply a matter of balancing dedication to the customer, and watching your bottom line.

Why do you think that most enthusiasts pirate their software these days? Since i'm one of the pirates I think i can explain it to you. When we geeks first got into this hobby, we didnt have an inherant hate of MS, or love of other companies implanted into our heads. Whatever animositywe may have toward MS comes from the fact that we have payed good money in the past, for a piece of software that was buggy at best. After numerous dissapointments, we learned not to trust this company to provide the kind of service we expected. Now, for the average computer user, they tend to write off the bugs as part of owning a computer, since they know nothing but Windows. Geeks on the other hand can pick out the "bad apples" when they see them.

It's kind of like going to the dentist and getting a filling. The average person can't really tell if he screwed up the filling unless its real bad. When another dentist gets a filling though, he can tell if he got a crappy job.

Geeks who have been around for a while can remember a time when every game released didnt require tons of patches just to be playable. The same goes for operating systems. DOS was wonderful, I grew up on it. Never a problem. The same pretty much goes for Win3.1. All we ask for is that same dedication to quality in our products these days. If we don't get it, we're not going to pay for it.

[zerosignal]

Exactly why the pirated XP Corporate edition is so popular.

I completey agree with you, I have a copy of Corporate on my computer.

This also brings up an interesting question, Why should a private individual, who also happens to be a hardware enthusiast be forced to buy a more expensive version of Windows to get around a feature that was put in to stop pirates? After all, he is paying for the software isn't he?

[’m‚³‚ñ]

What irks me is, MS not only doesn't let the cost of the product go down, once a new version is released, they increase the old version's cost. Makes it a PITA to buy, especially on a budget. Like Flight Simulator 2004, it cost $60 when it came out, and it stayed at $60 for more than a year after it came out, and just now is going down in price. Most games come out at $50 and drop to $20 rather quickly, usually within 6 months.

Something tells me, no matter what MS does, piracy is going to get worse. Either MS has to give in and lower prices, or it's not going to change anything.

[zerosignal]

Something tells me, no matter what MS does, piracy is going to get worse. Either MS has to give in and lower prices, or it's not going to change anything.

Exactly. What alot of people don't see about the whole piracy issue, including our own supreme court, is that it is more than a simple issue of buying vs. stealing. Intellectual property rights are the legal issue of this generation.

I'll stick with my belief that you should be able to freely copy any intellectual property you like, as long as you don't turn around and try to sell it. The real loss of money to the corporations is when a retail sale that definitely would have occured is stopped by a pirate selling a copy of that software.

[SJConsultant]

I'll stick with my belief that you should be able to freely copy any intellectual property you like, as long as you don't turn around and try to sell it. The real loss of money to the corporations is when a retail sale that definitely would have occured is stopped by a pirate selling a copy of that software.

So basically you believe that you can copy and give away software as you see fit so long as your not profiting?

Explain to me exactly how this does not hurt the business that created the software and is depending on sales to survive?

I'd be willing to bet if *you* were to creator of a popular software product your "beliefs" would not be the same.

[PaHick]

So basically you believe that you can copy and give away software as you see fit so long as your not profiting?
.


I believe what he was saying is he believes it is alright to copy(and pirate) for personal use, not to freely give away or trade. And that if he did not copy that material, he would not have bought the material. Which means either way,if he copied or not, the corporation didnt lose a sale.

[zerosignal]

So basically you believe that you can copy and give away software as you see fit so long as your not profiting?

Explain to me exactly how this does not hurt the business that created the software and is depending on sales to survive?

I'd be willing to bet if *you* were to creator of a popular software product your "beliefs" would not be the same.

Allright, I will explain how it doesnt hurt their business. When a person pirates a piece of software, they are basically saying, "i'm not sure if this software is worth $xx.xx, i'd like to try it out first." One act of piracy does not automatically equate to one lost sale. I pirate software that i would NEVER purchase. The main reason I would not purchase much of this software is either because it is buggy or incomplete, OR because the company that makes the software does not offer the support they should.

Yes, there are people out there who are unscrupulous and will pirate a good piece of software from a great company, and then never purchase it after they decide it is worth their money. That is unfortunate, but I won't agree with the tactic of punishing every potential customer just to stick it to the assholes.

When i pirate software/music/movies/etc. and then decide that I like said product, I will purchase it the first chance I get.

The system that is in place simply rewards crappy developers/musicians/artists, whose products arent worth the media they are recorded on. Since this country was based on the principle of the "little guy" I would expect that our laws leaned toward supporting the individual over the corporation.

One simply has to look at some independent software developers, or musicians such as Wilco, who support file sharing, but are still making a quality product to understand that making information free != not making money. There are plenty of artists who have embraced file sharing from the start, and have become very successfull despite not relying on a major corporation for their distribution and marketing.

The internet has turned our old school idea of marketing on its head, and the people that wont change with it are the ones who are going to miss out on future success.

[zerosignal]

I believe what he was saying is he believes it is alright to copy(and pirate) for personal use, not to freely give away or trade. And that if he did not copy that material, he would not have bought the material. Which means either way,if he copied or not, the corporation didnt lose a sale.

Exaclty! If i pirate something and end up hating it, then i won't buy it, and that means they didnt lose a sale.

If i pirate something and end up loving it, i will definitely purchase it. Therefore the corporation probably just made a sale they wouldnt have otherwise.

The only thing piracy does is help me to prevent myself from blindy buying a total piece of crap, and therein is the real reason they want to stop piracy. Because it allows them to produce movies or music that look good after you see the preview or hear the single, but really have no substance to them.

The real truth is that big corporations make 10x the money off selling shitty products to uninformed consumers, than they lose to unscrupulous pirates.

Let me put it one other way also. When you go to a store to buy a physical product such as a television or refrigerator, you are allowed to look it over, test it out, and evaluate it compared to other similar products. Decide for yourself based on emperical data which product is crap and which is good. When you buy a piece of software/music/movies you really have no way of test driving it to see if it sucks. Why do you think so many crappy cd's continue to sell and sell and sell. If a company makes a crappy television they will either lose sales or go out of business. Not true with the current business model for intellectual property.

[PaHick]

Exaclty! If i pirate something and end up hating it, then i won't buy it, and that means they didnt lose a sale.

If i pirate something and end up loving it, i will definitely purchase it. Therefore the corporation probably just made a sale they wouldnt have otherwise.

The only thing piracy does is help me to prevent myself from blindy buying a total piece of crap, and therein is the real reason they want to stop piracy. Because it allows them to produce movies or music that look good after you see the preview or hear the single, but really have no substance to them.

The real truth is that big corporations make 10x the money off selling shitty products to uninformed consumers, than they lose to unscrupulous pirates.

Let me put it one other way also. When you go to a store to buy a physical product such as a television or refrigerator, you are allowed to look it over, test it out, and evaluate it compared to other similar products. Decide for yourself based on emperical data which product is crap and which is good. When you buy a piece of software/music/movies you really have no way of test driving it to see if it sucks. Why do you think so many crappy cd's continue to sell and sell and sell. If a company makes a crappy television they will either lose sales or go out of business. Not true with the current business model for intellectual property.


I totally agree. And in this day and age(especially with MS) where they push unfinished products out the door to the consumer with the mentallity of "we'll fix it later", you really do have to be cautious of what you buy.

[MaXimus]

Here is the trick of how to bypass that:

) Open Windows Update, you will then get 2 choices >>> Express or Custom

2) At this point, do not choose Express nor Custom , just follow step 3 and you should be fine.

3) Copy/Paste this command in your Internet Explorer address bar then hit enter, nothing will happen then, but you have already finished the trick! http://hardforum.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Copy/Paste this command excluding the quotation marks but with everything else:

" javascript:void(window.g_sDisableWGACheck='all') "

4) Now after you have copy/pasted the above command (typed in red), you can choose Express or Custom to start updating!

Trick done! Windows now will assume that you have already checked the authentication of your CD Key and will start updating http://hardforum.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[zerosignal]

Here is the trick of how to bypass that:
**EDITED**



hehe, i was just reading about that trick on another website. if i didnt already have my copy of xp pro activation disabled it would be very usefull.

as for Windows Update, I don't trust MS enough to let them blindy update my system files. something shady about those guys in redmond :p

[MaXimus]

hehe, i was just reading about that trick on another website. if i didnt already have my copy of xp pro activation disabled it would be very usefull.

as for Windows Update, I don't trust MS enough to let them blindy update my system files. something shady about those guys in redmond :p
dunno man, but when I update I feel that ok I have done the best on my part to keep my OS smooth, it's a psychological thing to feel better, but practically, I never found any difference that these updates implemented,

[zerosignal]

dunno man, but when I update I feel that ok I have done the best on my part to keep my OS smooth, it's a psychological thing to feel better, but practically, I never found any difference that these updates implemented,

agreed, i will never feel safe if i know there are security holes and i don't get them patched.
any updates i do install are typically ones that ive read about on security websites as being something that definitely needs to be patched.

it seems that alot of the other updates MS includes are just additional bloatware.

[I(illa Bee]

Hmmmm im annoyed with this whole trying to hack it thing, so I jsut finished reinstalling a new copy (leagal) on my server...now im fully legit on all 3 machines...

My windows updates worked fine..

[MaXimus]

Hmmmm im annoyed with this whole trying to hack it thing, so I jsut finished reinstalling a new copy (leagal) on my server...now im fully legit on all 3 machines...

My windows updates worked fine..
i would never pay for a software :)

except NOD32, that's the only legal thing i own :D

[PaHick]

Figured he'd be getting a free trip for his thread :D

[zerosignal]

Figured he'd be getting a free trip for his thread :D

yah, i thought he was a bit brave to be posting that, guess theyre taking that stuff way more seriously than when i used to hang here.

editing my quote of him to get rid of it just in case.

[’m‚³‚ñ]

That was worth a few giggles. :p

[SJConsultant]

Allright, I will explain how it doesnt hurt their business. When a person pirates a piece of software, they are basically saying, "i'm not sure if this software is worth $xx.xx, i'd like to try it out first." One act of piracy does not automatically equate to one lost sale. I pirate software that i would NEVER purchase. The main reason I would not purchase much of this software is either because it is buggy or incomplete, OR because the company that makes the software does not offer the support they should.
the people that wont change with it are the ones who are going to miss out on future success.

This is why software vendors make *trial* software.Trial software allows you to legally try the software before making a decision on buying it. Unfortunately, your just trying to make petty excuses to justify software piracy.

[ccotenj]

This is why software vendors make *trial* software.Trial software allows you to legally try the software before making a decision on buying it. Unfortunately, your just trying to make petty excuses to justify software piracy.

qft.

also espouses a lot different philosophies than any other self proclaimed "conservative" i'm familiar with...

fwiw, zero, i've been in IT long enough to have programmed on punch cards (geez, it seems like just yesterday, too)... so please don't attempt to educate me on what it used to be like "in the old days"...

[Komataguri]

This is why software vendors make *trial* software.Trial software allows you to legally try the software before making a decision on buying it. Unfortunately, your just trying to make petty excuses to justify software piracy.


Most of which is crippled, and when they run out, if you don't like them, usually clog up your registry and harddrive with files not removed after uninstall.


I'm not advocating piracy, because I don't use either method [ Trial or Warez Trial ], Since I already have and paid for all the software I feel I'll ever need, save for games of course.

[SJConsultant]

Most of which is crippled, and when they run out, if you don't like them, usually clog up your registry and harddrive with files not removed after uninstall.


Granted some trial software is crippled, but a majority of software I have dealt with has always had fully functional trial software for a certain time period.

Winzip is a perfect example of low cost fully functional trial software that very few if any pay the $30 fee.Even software as cheap as Winzip has been pirated many times over.

Winzip (http://news.com.com/WinZip+purchased+by+turnaround+specialist/2100-1046_3-5790830.html?part=rss&tag=5790830&subj=news) is already planning on reinforcing their reminders about purchasing simply because if they want to survive as a business, they must take action to ensure they are getting paid for the product they developed and are selling.

It really doesn't matter how cheap software is, there will be people who pirate it simply because they are too damn cheap and will attempt to justify the means any way possible.

[Susquehannock]

Good point about Winzip. Though I think most have moved on & now use WinRaR.

[XamediX]

yea winzip was a bad example. no one would/should pay $30 for that. especially since windows ships with zip support and every one who knows something uses winrar. windows piracy sucks, but oh well..... Gates is still making millions off the pregnant aol housewives that buy xp home and every stupid media pack that comes with it.

I agree that alot of people who pirate software wouldnt have bought it anyway, but make it worthwhile enough and people will. you can check isonews forums and theres people who actally still openy admit to buying the software or waiting for a pre-order to arrive. Also while the buggy software is an excuse to pirate, its a pretty good one. I bought a copy of windows prof, but i use a corp edition because i am not cool with activation everytime i cop a hotdeal from anandtech and windows detects new hardware.

[S1nF1xx]

The thing that pissed me off about winzip is that it used to be free, then when they made you pay for it, I didn't use any new features they put in it, so it pissed me off. That's when I went to winrar, a better product for the same price.

But as was said, there is trial software so you don't have to pirate it to test it.

[SJConsultant]

yea winzip was a bad example. no one would/should pay $30 for that. especially since windows ships with zip support and every one who knows something uses winrar. windows piracy sucks, but oh well..... Gates is still making millions off the pregnant aol housewives that buy xp home and every stupid media pack that comes with it.

I agree that alot of people who pirate software wouldnt have bought it anyway, but make it worthwhile enough and people will. you can check isonews forums and theres people who actally still openy admit to buying the software or waiting for a pre-order to arrive. Also while the buggy software is an excuse to pirate, its a pretty good one. I bought a copy of windows prof, but i use a corp edition because i am not cool with activation everytime i cop a hotdeal from anandtech and windows detects new hardware.

Guess you don't have any experience with Windows prior to XP? I only say this because prior to XP zip support was not built in and Winzip was the defacto choice. :rolleyes:

Attempting to justify piracy because of buggy software means you are advocating that no one buys any software since there are bugs in every software package out there. Your own statements contradict your actions since XP has, and still does have bugs, yet you buy a copy? Lame excuses again.

[Brad4321]

This is just a random comment, not really directed at anyone.

Those that pirate windows will probably do so no matter what the cost. However, if microsoft reduced the cost of windows, the above average consumer would be much happier. On average, windows is 1/4 of the cost of the entire PC that I build. Most of my customers want the cheapest PC possible. I can put something together that is pretty decent at $300, but when you add another hundred on for windows, it makes windows seem a little overpriced. Granted micosoft has to pay their people as well as anyone else, but I just see there being more overhead in manufacturing hardware than software. $100 for a mobo/cpu combo or $100 for windows, it just seems that microsoft is milking the market since they know that people will be near forced to buy it.

[ccotenj]

there's a million "excuses" for "why i steal"...

none of them are valid...

the "gates is making millions" argument (advanced underneath many guises for cheating corporations, such as people rma'ing equipment that they fry themselves by oc'ing, etc.) is one that sure sounds good, but isn't any more valid than the "the software is buggy, why should i buy it?" (or for that matter, the excuse for hackers saying "we are helping people by showing them their weaknesses")... it's not just "gates making millions"... it's the thousands and thousands of people employed by microsoft... and indirectly, the many many many thousands of people who are employed doing stuff that is based upon microsoft software... and not to mention the stockholders, many of which are just average joe's on the street...

again, i've seen a bunch of excuses rationalizing in people's minds why they steal... if you can sleep at night, fine... but it doesn't make it "right"...

[ccotenj]

This is just a random comment, not really directed at anyone.

Those that pirate windows will probably do so no matter what the cost. However, if microsoft reduced the cost of windows, the above average consumer would be much happier. On average, windows is 1/4 of the cost of the entire PC that I build. Most of my customers want the cheapest PC possible. I can put something together that is pretty decent at $300, but when you add another hundred on for windows, it makes windows seem a little overpriced. Granted micosoft has to pay their people as well as anyone else, but I just see there being more overhead in manufacturing hardware than software. $100 for a mobo/cpu combo or $100 for windows, it just seems that microsoft is milking the market since they know that people will be near forced to buy it.

again, this "sounds good"...

but... microsoft is a publicly held company... and since we are past the days of "irrational exuberance" :rolleyes: , companies are much better "valued" by the marketplace... the fact that microsoft shares don't trade at some kind of ridiculous level tells me that people who evaluate the numbers for a living don't seem to think that microsoft's income is out of line with their costs... and since microsoft's bookkeeping would appear to be on the up and up, i'm comfortable listening to what their numbers are telling me...

as far as overhead goes... i'll grant you there's probably a larger raw material cost in making a mobo/cpu combo vs. making a cd... but you are ignoring the fact that the development costs aren't even close (especially when it comes to an os), and the testing costs aren't even in the same universe...

[quasimodem]

I work with a guy who openly admits to only ever buying 1 operating system ever.

Microsoft Windows Media Center, and he says that's because he couldn't find a decent crack for it. So it appears to me that Microsoft has either come up with a better protection scheme then the masses of people can generally find fixes for, or he's just an idiot.

QM

[odoe]

For those of you admitting to pirating software, here is a fair warning.

Cut it out.

It's against the rules, you kow that, I've already given one warning in this thread and some of you seem to not get it. I don't care if you pirate software, but don't admit to it here.
I'll be forwarding any further rule-breakers to the admins from here on out.

[XamediX]

Guess you don't have any experience with Windows prior to XP? I only say this because prior to XP zip support was not built in and Winzip was the defacto choice. :rolleyes:

Attempting to justify piracy because of buggy software means you are advocating that no one buys any software since there are bugs in every software package out there. Your own statements contradict your actions since XP has, and still does have bugs, yet you buy a copy? Lame excuses again.
dude... shut up. i buy windows cause its not THAT buggy. and before xp winzip was free or close to it. but we arent talkin abour prior to XP, we're talking about windows xp piracy checks. get off your soapbox and practice reading comprehension.

btw i dont steal software so im not trying to justify piracy. im just noting that it exists along with many other evils in this world that punish people/things/soceity far more than a few mil of lost profit for billy.

[SJConsultant]

dude... shut up. i buy windows cause its not THAT buggy. and before xp winzip was free or close to it. but we arent talkin abour prior to XP, we're talking about windows xp piracy checks. get off your soapbox and practice reading comprehension.


Shut up? Are you not civil enough to discuss things calmly? ;)

I know what this thread is about and I simply used winzip as an *example* of software that was cheap to buy, yet commonly pirated. This example shows just how a very useful program in general was pirated even though it was low cost. IMO lowering the cost of Windows XP is not going to slow down the piracy rate.

But then you digressed and stated Winzip was a *bad example* because it was built into Windows XP. I merely pointed out that MS OSs prior to XP did not have that capability so one *had* to download a utility to do so and Winzip was a "standard" and again pirated software that was cheap to buy, but yet people still pirated it and again I used Winzip *as an example*.

You then made a statement that contradicts purchases you made. But I am not going to jump into that any further considering the warnings that were given about openly admitting to piracy.

If you can't handle when someone contradicts your thoughts, opinoins, or practices, then that is your problem not mine. I think your the one who needs to check their reading comprehension. :p

[Susquehannock]

Anyone remember "NetZip"? Realnetworks spent a lot buying them out during the tech boom.
Then MS built their unzip into XP and killed it for them. Same thing with Real Player vs. media player.
Then there was the Explorer vs. Netscape incident. :rolleyes:

How good are these products MS bundled with XP? Well, how many of you use media player
or IE unless you have to?
Personally, I find WinAmp and Firefox to be much better apps and many others do too.

Same goes for Windows. If there were an alternative that was as widely accepted I'm sure
most of us would migrate in a heatbeat.

[XamediX]

RSJ when it comes to my posts, u just have no idea what you're talking about. what you are saying i said, i didn't. you walk over there and i will walk over here mr civil. i will not respond to you anymore.

ontopic: This new "hack" for the new windows piracy check seems simple to fix though on microsft's end.

[zerosignal]

This is why software vendors make *trial* software.Trial software allows you to legally try the software before making a decision on buying it. Unfortunately, your just trying to make petty excuses to justify software piracy.

Once again, you're still not getting it. Most trial software is not only crippled, but very often based on alpha/beta versions that are extremely buggy. You tell me i'm making excuses, but then you go and blindly defend every software maker despite any of their faults. Like the other guy said, you're on a soapbox.

BTW, telling me im making excuses with nothing to back it up is a classic cop-out.


qft.

also espouses a lot different philosophies than any other self proclaimed "conservative" i'm familiar with...

fwiw, zero, i've been in IT long enough to have programmed on punch cards (geez, it seems like just yesterday, too)... so please don't attempt to educate me on what it used to be like "in the old days"...


This attack on my philosophies also shows just how single-minded you are. I guess you mean that since i say i'm a conservative, I have to follow the Republican party line? Well i'm not a Republican. If you look back at the way copyright law was framed by our founding fathers, you'll find that my basic principles pretty much fall in line with them. Guess what? They were conservatives. Conservative simply means small government, less spending, and "conserving" basic rights for INDIVIDUALS. Your views simply show how completey messed up our political system has become.

In order to have a well-rounded view of politics in general, you can't simply buy into either of the party lines. You must pick and choose the good parts from each philosophy and throw out all the propaganda they feed you.

[ccotenj]

a) i never said anything about republican, democrat or whatever. i said "conservative". and it wasn't an attack. chill. and since i chose not to express any political "views" (since this isn't the forum for them), you really don't have any grasp of what my views might be...

b) you are off base on the copyright acts, but again, not the time and place. i might suggest reading up on the "facts", vs. "whatever 'conservative'/'libertarian' website" you are reading... it might be enlightening... but then again, maybe not...

as sjc said, you are making excuses... and he's (and others) have given you examples... you choose to brush them aside... fwiw, "most" trial software (at least in my experience) isn't "beta or buggy"... it may be crippled...

[zerosignal]

a) i never said anything about republican, democrat or whatever. i said "conservative". and it wasn't an attack. chill. and since i chose not to express any political "views" (since this isn't the forum for them), you really don't have any grasp of what my views might be...

b) you are off base on the copyright acts, but again, not the time and place. i might suggest reading up on the "facts", vs. "whatever 'conservative'/'libertarian' website" you are reading... it might be enlightening... but then again, maybe not...

as sjc said, you are making excuses... and he's (and others) have given you examples... you choose to brush them aside... fwiw, "most" trial software (at least in my experience) isn't "beta or buggy"... it may be crippled...


Point... Counterpoint.

a. i never said that you were talking about republicans/democrats, i simply referred to the republican party because it is the main "conservative" party in this country. i said that by saying, and i quote you, "also espouses a lot different philosophies than any other self proclaimed "conservative" i'm familiar with...", you were implying that I couldn't be a conservative because i don't believe what most other conservatives do. meaning of course, that unless i follow the conservative party line, i must not be a conservative.

b. i'm off base on copyright acts? perhaps you should read up on our nations original stance on copyrights. i will quote from a review of Lawrence Lessig's book "Free Culture" where he went into good detail on how our founding fathers viewed the boundaries of copyright.

And i quote, "In the U.S., the first such law in 1790 established a copyright term of 14 years, allowed for only one renewal (also for 14 years), and required registration. With the passage of the "Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act" (CTEA) in 1998, we now have an effective term of 95 years, renewal is essentially automatic, and no registration is required."

That law is what i call a pretty hard FACT. With a copyright term of 14 years (or 28 with an extension) each generation had the ability to profit off of their inventions, while also making the invention public domain for successive generations. It's quite obvious that our founding fathers never meant to have 95 year, multi-generational, copyrights on products whose original inventors may be long dead. Copyrights of that length do not spark innovation or provide incentive to the inventor, they only provide a means for large corporations to continue to make profits off of ideas that were not even theirs to begin with.

On to your obviously uninformed claim that i get my views from some, "conservative/libertarian" website. Frankly, as stupid as that assumption is, i really shouldn't even bother to respond, but the fact is, i have NEVER visited either the RNC/DNC websites and have only seen the libertarian website ONCE. It's quite amazing when a person can't come up with a valid thought out argument for their view, that they begin to bash their opponent with claims that they are just spewing a party line that they read somewhere.

[SJConsultant]

RSJ when it comes to my posts, u just have no idea what you're talking about. what you are saying i said, i didn't. you walk over there and i will walk over here mr civil. i will not respond to you anymore.

So now your claiming you didn't say what I quoted you as saying?

Seems fine for you to take my comments out of context yet backpeddle when your called out on it.

Once again, you're still not getting it. Most trial software is not only crippled, but very often based on alpha/beta versions that are extremely buggy. You tell me i'm making excuses, but then you go and blindly defend every software maker despite any of their faults. Like the other guy said, you're on a soapbox.

No, I get it. People are going to justify piracy no matter what the reason. :rolleyes:

[ccotenj]

again, no one said anything about rnc/dnc websites... :rolleyes:

the first such copyright law covered written material and discoveries... things have evolved a bit since then, don't you think?

ok, you win... fruitless discussion...

[zerosignal]

So now your claiming you didn't say what I quoted you as saying?

Seems fine for you to take my comments out of context yet backpeddle when your called out on it.



No, I get it. People are going to justify piracy no matter what the reason. :rolleyes:


Another cop-out, give me some valid points rather than insults.

[zerosignal]

again, no one said anything about rnc/dnc websites... :rolleyes:

the first such copyright law covered written material and discoveries... things have evolved a bit since then, don't you think?

ok, you win... fruitless discussion...


You said, "conservative/libertarian" websites, i'd classify the RNC website as conservative wouldnt you?

In essence, written material is no different than software/music/movies. They are ALL intellectual property that can be copied without actually stealing a physical copy of the product. So no, they havent really evolved, just changed their content delivery methods.

[Ice Czar]

well when it strays into a fingerpointing contest with convoluted political accusations and implications its strayed too far for recovery.