Suggestions for HardOCP Eval Process

[Kyle_Bennett]

Please share your compliments, criticisms, and ideas on how we can do better system evaluations in this thread. We do ask that you first at least fully read one of our evaluations before adding your 2 cents though. Our first evaluation is here for your reading pleasure. (http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NzY0)

[Dr. DVS 1]

I gotta say I am impressed. After 20-odd years of Ziff-Davis and IDG fluff, this perspective is a very welcome sight. Congrats on this first system review, even if you didn't run it by Tim (a few grammatical errors, and "Pentium D Xtreme Edition 840"?) before you posted it. :D

[tycoot]

i dont think it could of been better. it was nice to see how velocity talked about their hardware, also nice that nothing that we know of :eek: was held back to see exactly how the company is or hardware is.

[0mega]

a little price to performance chart with some other reviewed prebuilds would be cool, not sure how you would come up with it, mabye cost divided by fps on something? lol

this is gonna be good to show noobs who are afraid of building PC's :)

[Legomancer]

I thought the first review was excellent. I am looking forward to them, as I can see that I will finally be able to get the scoop on systems. The most revealing and useful thing in it to me is the tech support.

I would like to see info on how the system tested fits in with a companies entire product line. For example, will features we see in X system be in all systems by X's manufacturer? (IE Watercooling for the Velocity Micro System? Is that an add on? Standard? Part of all models?)

The only other question I had pertaining to this review was, what if you didn't know nearly as much about computers? If you didn't feel comfortable replacing the PSU and motherboard, would they have had you ship it to them? Would it have been regular shipping, or fast? I only say this because installing a new motherboard and PSU is a fair bit of labor, and to me it somewhat defeats the purpose of buying a prebuilt PC with a warranty.


Overall a truly excellent review. I am a subscriber to PC Magazine, and I always think "But isn't there more to it than that? What about so-and-so? Your review really answered all of these questions, and was up to the excellent level of all the other reviews here. HardOCP is the best review site on the net as far as I'm concerned, and to see y'all doing system reviews is wonderful.

[x_dreamer]

twas a great review. puts maximum pc and cpu magazines to shame. with all the publishings u guys do, u could make a great magazine. but with that would come an assload of work. hope to see more reviews soon..... btw, is there going to be like a few reviews for each person working for kyle?

[TheAcorn]

Only in an [H] system review does the PSU fail :D

I demand a drop test!

[SamuraiInBlack]

Truthfully I'd subscribe to an [H] magazine. I find what I read here both on the site and in the forums to be more educational than anywhere else I've gone to for my tech news, with maybe just a rare select few exceptions.

If there were some way to avoid making everything seem like a "building your own is better!!!1111oneoneoneone" viewpoint in doing a comparable build to complete setup kind of review, as in, pitting a custom built rig from the ground up vs.an out-of-box thing like this, I'd love to see it. I only say that because for the newer people it'd seem insulting, like there is no such thing as a good pre-built machine (frankly I've yet to see one myself that's worth buying outside laptops, but that's just IMHO). Obviously there are many advantages to building your own, such as being able to configure your machine the way you like it specifically and not what some company SAYS you need, but these reviews aren't for proving that purpose. Still, I think it would be nice to see a comparable build stacking up against it to see if these machines are really worth the difference in price, or have it where it'd be up to the reader to decide if the extra markup is worth the difference in performance in favor of convenience, whether the difference is positive or negative.

If there was a way to go at it from that angle, I think it'd help the system evaluation system.

[Brando457]

[H] magazine would be saweeet!

The review is awesome Kyle and I look forward to more. I build all my own systems, but still enjoy seeing what prebuild machines have to offer.

[Scarceas]

I do hear ya on fluffy benchmarks, and I commend the tuning of each game to its best playable setting...

However, framerate numbers, and numbers in general, are basically completely worthless without some sort of baseline or comparison.

You don't spend $4465 on a gaming system without wanting to know that it is among the best available for gaming. This being an Intel system, you really need a comparison to something fast from AMD.

I suggest you take a page from your video card reviews... Specifically, the page that hardocp refers to as the "apples to apples" comparison...

Build a reference system for comparison... An Athlon64 4000+ with 1GB RAM stock speeds on an nf4 chipset, and both an X850XT and a 6800GT (or even ultra) run though the gaming paces at predetermined (and demanding) resolution/aa/af settings. You wouldn't have to retest the reference system with each review, so after the initial leg work was done the only additional benching would be to test the review system at the predetermined settings.

This would provide a perspective buyer with some very relevant comparison data to determine if a system stacks up to something that is among the top level hardware. The review is simply incomplete, and not worth near as much, without a comparison at least somewhat similar to what I've outlined.

On a side note, I think it is rather ballsy of VM to ship an overclocked and water-cooled system.... and you've proven why... if you sell an o/c system (and I've done it), you need to make damn sure it is stable. And shipping a water-cooled system is simply a risky situation.... UPS drops that thing and your cooler can slide off... With some Athlons, that would simply mean a toasted CPU. 4 1/2 grand surely eases their nerves about it, though....

[Wrenchski]

Waitaminnit...if *I* build machines, and I send one out for a review...
and the power supply and mobo *POP*...would *I* send THE REVIEWER
the parts to install and HOPE HE can make it work?

Man, if these guys were Japanese, they'd have to fall on their swords.

$4K+ and one of the first ones they send out goes teats-up...LOL!

"Hello, American Express? I'd like to deny the charges on that computer I just bought..."

Ski

[GeForceX]

Only in an [H] system review does the PSU fail :D

Haha, I gotta sig that. :D

And I agree with a lot of the posts above.

Kyle/Morley/Whoever Reviews Pre-Built Systems, please refer to my other post regarding the actual evaluation review on my thoughts.

-J.

[Project_2501]

About time we get a forum directly for these, I'm kinda sick of Dells mixed in with the rest...

[PTNL]

really liked the review. it was a lot more thorough than most (if not all) magazine reviewers, and i didn't have to sift through 17 pages of ads to find the next page of the article :)

[xappie]

Great review. I would have liked to see more information about how the reviewer thinks a non tech-savvy user would fare with the machine. Maybe have an average user come over when the item is first shipped and have THEM unpackage and setup the machine? How easy is it for them, having not done it dozens of time before? How easy is it for them to get the machine running, XP registered, etc? What about if they want to phone tech support? Is tech support just as friendly and useful if the caller ISNT from a review website, and/or doesnt know about computers? For example, if my dad had bought the machine, noticed the graphics anomalies and called in - he wouldn't know what they were talking about if they told him the GPU was overclocked. How would tech support handle this?

[RogerX]

I loved the in-depth review of this high-end pre-built system, but based on your comments, the score for Stability (6) was WAY TOO HIGH. You need to hold the system to the same standard as you hold motherboards... moreso considering the price of this system.

If they are advertising an 850XT PE, and send you a too-hot, highly-overclocked 850XT non-PE, that is a problem. If they are advertising a retail product at 4.0GHz and have you clocking down to 3.6GHz for testing, which causes you to discover a deficiency in the attention to detail in the cooling system installation, both build quality and stability scores should suffer. And both should have been BUTCHERED by a failed PSU and motherboard, or you should have withheld the review for a second full unit to be shipped and tested. (Kyle, It's your shop, and you'd glady refund my money, I know. :) I'm just talking about how I would do it, since you asked for comments. )

Overall it does look like a nice system, but far from a bargain if they are not sending you stable video cards and processors at published specs. Stability should have been around a 2 or a 3, in my opinion, and build quality around a 6 or 7.

[Hooligan]

i'm dissapointed....

isn't "hard"ocp.com supposed to be for the "enthusiast" market? :confused:

what kind of "hard enthusiast" will go out and buy a pre-built machine? :rolleyes:

i'm sorry, but i just don't see the"[H]" in that.

[RogerX]

what kind of "hard enthusiast" will go out and buy a pre-built machine?

The kind of guys who are in middle management where I work. Mediocre at playing games, not technical enough to build a system, but want to have the "best" system and have the money to pay for it.

And there are a LOT of them, in their $350,000 "McMansions" (big cookie-cutter homes in a secluded development in the 'good' suburbs), driving their SUV to drop the kids off at daycare, etc. There is plenty of market, all the companies need are 1)a good product, and 2) a helluva lot of advertising.

[BoogerBomb]

One thing about the tech support section I didnt like was getting the head honcho involved. It would have been nice to see what tech support came up with themselves without firing an email off to Copeland.

One other thing. Was this a review unit that they made specifically for this review or is it one that was ordered through the same channels that we would order it through?

[Scroatdog]

i'm dissapointed....

isn't "hard"ocp.com supposed to be for the "enthusiast" market? :confused:

what kind of "hard enthusiast" will go out and buy a pre-built machine? :rolleyes:

i'm sorry, but i just don't see the"[H]" in that.


I think I'm going to have to agree with Hooligan on this one. While I applaud the approach Kyle is taking, much like he did when he "busted out" the video card shenanigans with doctored benchmarking programs, I agree that the majority of [H] are just that: people who want to build their own machines, then overclock them till they see sweat coming off the case.

Now, I'm not saying there aren't some [H] out there that want to buy prebuilt for one reason or another, but I think the majority fall into the DIY category.

On the other hand, maybe Kyle and team are also trying to appeal to a more broad audience, and gain more followship from nOObs who may not know too much about computers (we've all been there). In that case, the system evaluations would have much more value for that segment of [H] readers. For me, sure I'll read the reviews and see how these systems strain under the pressure of a thorough evaluation, but I'll never buy one. I don't think I could ever buy a prebuilt compuer again (unless I was flipping it on Ebay).

JMHO

[beanman101283]

One thing about the tech support section I didnt like was getting the head honcho involved. It would have been nice to see what tech support came up with themselves without firing an email off to Copeland.

One other thing. Was this a review unit that they made specifically for this review or is it one that was ordered through the same channels that we would order it through?

I agree, i kind of wish that Copeland HADN'T gotten involved, since i doubt he would do the same for me.

Did you guys order the system through their website, or did you send out requests for systems to review? A nice addition to the website portion of the review would be how easy it is to order through the site. Things like how many custom options you get, how well they explain different options, how much fluff they try to get you to add on to your order.

Overall, i think it's an excellent review. Now i actually know something about the full experience of getting a system from this company, instead of the fluff that PC Magazine and others churn out. They don't really tell me anything that i couldn't figure out just by looking at the specs. Keep up the good work!

[Hooligan]

The kind of guys who are in middle management where I work. Mediocre at playing games, not technical enough to build a system, but want to have the "best" system and have the money to pay for it.

And there are a LOT of them, in their $350,000 "McMansions" (big cookie-cutter homes in a secluded development in the 'good' suburbs), driving their SUV to drop the kids off at daycare, etc. There is plenty of market, all the companies need are 1)a good product, and 2) a helluva lot of advertising.

Last I checked guys who are in middle management, mediocre at playing games and not technical enough to build a system do NOT visit HardOCP.com

I repeat myself.... what kind of ENTHUSIAST will buy a pre-built machine???
dictionary.com:

en·thu·si·ast Audio pronunciation of "enthusiast" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-thz-st)
n.

1. One who is filled with enthusiasm; one who is ardently absorbed in an interest or pursuit: a baseball enthusiast.
2. A zealot; a fanatic.

[Chris_Morley]

Last I checked guys who are in middle management, mediocre at playing games and not technical enough to build a system do NOT visit HardOCP.com

I repeat myself.... what kind of ENTHUSIAST will buy a pre-built machine???
dictionary.com:

en·thu·si·ast Audio pronunciation of "enthusiast" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-thz-st)
n.

1. One who is filled with enthusiasm; one who is ardently absorbed in an interest or pursuit: a baseball enthusiast.
2. A zealot; a fanatic.
I don't think it's about getting the enthusiast to purchase a prebuilt computer, rather evaluating a system from an enthusiasts point of view, and in this case, from the rather exceptional point of view of an systems integration industry veteran. Look at the guys who staff the paper rags and you'll see journalism students...

[Kyle_Bennett]

Last I checked guys who are in middle management, mediocre at playing games and not technical enough to build a system do NOT visit HardOCP.com

I repeat myself.... what kind of ENTHUSIAST will buy a pre-built machine???
dictionary.com:

en·thu·si·ast Audio pronunciation of "enthusiast" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-thz-st)
n.

1. One who is filled with enthusiasm; one who is ardently absorbed in an interest or pursuit: a baseball enthusiast.
2. A zealot; a fanatic.

It is clear to me that you have not read the full review or the editorial linked in the review as we directly answered your thoughts in those articles. Thanks for sounding off though.

[DougLite]

I will sound off on my pet topic, hard drives. If you have followed my work in Disk Storage Systems, you will know that I am a huge critic of synthetic hard drive benchmarks, as well as RAID-0 on the desktop. I also find it somewhat disappointing that all of the choices for this model's "Hard Drive 1," presumably the boot drive(s) are RAID-0. With such a setup, it's a good thing they include the restore disk to compensate for the reduced reliability of RAID-0 ;)

The strengths of RAID-0 stand out a little bit more on a system built for heavy SMP such as an EE 840 based rig, however, there remain the twin phenomenon that conspire against RAID-0 on the desktop, file locality and frequent seeks. Heavy multitaskers are best suited to have independent spindles to service each of their intense tasks separately, rather than have a RAID-0 array where both drives are tied to one request from one program at any given time. Also, users who do heavy content creation work will be better served with the RAID-0 array on a scratch/storage array rather than a boot array. Curiosly enough, RAID-0 is not an option where it would be best suited, while it is automatically chosen where it is weakest.

Also, another observation on Velocity's comments about retail components being better than OEM components - I hope that 250GB WD wasn't a retail drive with a mere one year warranty - you are much better served going OEM on hard drives, where WD sticks to the three year warranty.

Now that I have addressed that sample specifically, I will move on to my comments in general, focusing on storage again, on evaluations. I would really like to see real world storage tests, at least a "small file" game test, a "big file" game test, straight file transfer test, large and small - perhaps music files for small and movie files for large. You have already installed Far Cry for the video card runs, that's a good "small file" game, with over 800 files of less than 128KB out of less than 1100 in the whole installation, while World of Warcraft is a good "big file" game, with eight MPQs ranging in size from 68MB to right at 1GB (my installation once again). It may also be desireable to test the load time of a workstation application like Photoshop as well as save/load times in such an application. IOMeter, HDTach, Sandra, etc do not account for locality when benchmarking hard drives, that's why there is no substitute for application level tests. My two cents.

[GeForceX]

Hooligan, please stop thread crapping. There are other suited forums to complain about this.

-J.

[GeForceX]

The strengths of RAID-0 stand out a little bit more on a system built for heavy SMP such as an EE 840 based rig, however, there remain the twin phenomenon that conspire against RAID-0 on the desktop, file locality and frequent seeks. Heavy multitaskers are best suited to have independent spindles to service each of their intense tasks separately, rather than have a RAID-0 array where both drives are tied to one request from one program at any given time. Also, users who do heavy content creation work will be better served with the RAID-0 array on a scratch/storage array rather than a boot array. Curiosly enough, RAID-0 is not an option where it would be best suited, while it is automatically chosen where it is weakest.


Here's an interesting thought-- did Velocity Micro include a hard drive back up / protection software, just in case one hard drive of the RAID 0 array fails? It would be nice if they do include this. I know other companies, although mostly professional system builders, that include this.

-J.

[x_dreamer]

some of the guys are saying this isnt really for hardocp, and how none of us would buy a prebuilt. well i kinda looked at it like, if i see how xxx system runs w/ xxx parts,, i knida can see what the parts are capable of. also, for the guys that do buy prebuilt, this is the BEST place to check them out. all the other people just say like 5 sentences and thats it. And other than that, they would be basing thier purhase off the manfucators marketing, and this is often misleading.

I think it wouldn't be very good to have those price to preformance charts. b/c all thas gonna be is x amount of frames per second. when a real system has nice sound card, nice speakers, moniter, case, hell even mice and keyboard. so its unfair to rate it just on fps.

[Talonz]

Great review Kyle.

I would, however, like to see a few things though. The first review that you guys put out is great, don't get me wrong, but there needs to be a comparison aspect to the review, not just putting the frills of the system on a 1-10 scale (though it is necessary). What I'm trying to say is, if you guys could possibly bench the system against a -similar- prebuilt system to see how well they have tweaked the machine. Also, detailed specs would be nice, such as the mobo, RAM, etc...(though I'm sure they all use high end parts, if they're going to make it to your review bench).

Aside from all the important specs of the machine that's readily available to any customer, I think the most important aspect of a system builder is how well they tweak their machines. Are the RAM timings nice? Did they OC to a reasonable amount (if this is part of the system)? Are all of the drivers up to date and set up for optimal speed and quality?

Little things like that are what really differentiate the Dell and the custom-built high performance machine, even if they have the exact same specs.

[icthus13]

I liked it, and was impressed that you actually docked points for VM's shortcomings, even the "oops we sent you the wrong video card" type. I don't think that many other "fluff" type reviewers would have done so. I would look forward to seeing reviews of systems that don't cost $4000, though, because as you guys have said, one of primary purposes for reading these will be to see what computers to reccomend to my family, friends, and co-workers. And I don't think many of them will be buying $4k computers any time soon.

[EnderXC]

That was an awsome review, complete and gave the reader an excellent idea of what service to expect from VM and their quality. I think budget system review would be nice too.

[flenser]

A couple of ratings comments:

The system noise, video card, and system stability were quoted as downgrade reasons in more than one category. Kudos for completeness and for pointing out where one problem can affect more than one area of consideration for a system, but it does seem a bit like double jeopardy.

As I read the scores and saw scores like 7/10, 9/10, etc starting to line up, it "felt" like the system would get a score of around 8/10, not 7.5. It's not a big deal. but without a verbal explanation of what 7.5 means (average, above average, recommended, not recommended, etc), 7.5 seems pretty low after looking at the other specific scores.

Anyhow, other than those little nitpicks I thought the article was a nice change from the generic plug it in and run benchmarks "reviews" we see everywhere else.

[GeForceX]

Aside from all the important specs of the machine that's readily available to any customer, I think the most important aspect of a system builder is how well they tweak their machines. Are the RAM timings nice? Did they OC to a reasonable amount (if this is part of the system)? Are all of the drivers up to date and set up for optimal speed and quality?

Little things like that are what really differentiate the Dell and the custom-built high performance machine, even if they have the exact same specs.

I think they have mentioned this in the review in the first couple of pages but those are good points to check out.

-J.

[natpond]

overall the review was the best I've seen. Until, that is, i got to the conclusion, where the "whatever out of ten" scores were presented... is it me, or was the tech support lacking (on hold for an hour, eventually getting good service, but only because you are in contact with the president of the company) and the stability? 6/10? wouldnt a system crash immediately put that at a 1 or 2? stability issues placing a system at or around 6, to me would be aratifacting, random reboots, bluescreens, etc. a crash resulting in damaged components would shoot a system right to the bottom for me. my point is, i think the review itself was great, but he summary in points was a little off point form what you were saying int he review. and i do think the out of ten scores are important for providing a base way to compare systems that have been reviewed.

Nat

[Kyle_Bennett]

overall the review was the best I've seen. Until, that is, i got to the conclusion, where the "whatever out of ten" scores were presented... is it me, or was the tech support lacking (on hold for an hour, eventually getting good service, but only because you are in contact with the president of the company) and the stability? 6/10? wouldnt a system crash immediately put that at a 1 or 2? stability issues placing a system at or around 6, to me would be aratifacting, random reboots, bluescreens, etc. a crash resulting in damaged components would shoot a system right to the bottom for me. my point is, i think the review itself was great, but he summary in points was a little off point form what you were saying int he review. and i do think the out of ten scores are important for providing a base way to compare systems that have been reviewed.

Nat

Well the fact of the matter is that VM replaced the non-stable parts with ones that worked perfectly. Should you not find value in a metric being applied, well then, don't pay it any attention. I wrestled with the idea of putting them in there or not and I think they are a neccessary evil. Advanced folks are not going to see the value in them, but rather pull it from the text and some other folks are going to want one page and that is it...

[Diriel]

Kyle and Cris,
Nice review, and your initial mission statement about Why you were going to do these reviews are Soo spot on. For those of us known by our friends ect as "the computer wiz" some days it is not advisable for us to build a system for an aquaintance friend: "Hey my old compter just died. Man can you build me a great comuter that wont die? Oh, my son and ALL of his friends will use it to game on and stuff. Oh, and I dont have much money. Oh and when I got problems you dont mind *US* calling you right? ...Errrr.... WAIT!!!! Heh, any of You ever been there? I know I have: "Actually sir I am a little busy right now. Have you tried Dell Computers? I hear they are great! They also make gaming machines..." So Kyle and crew my hats off to you! Now I can say hey go visit www.hardocp.com and check out their system reviews!
Ok now for the one part that I had minor issue with. Your rating system being a check list numeric and then at the very end giving a divorced / subjective seperate number rating is some what confusing to me. I can easily see a stressed out consumer reading that last part about this end number rating not being refrenced to the above ratings and saying "DO WHAT? What kinda bull is this?" Personally I read it all the way through and actually agreed with the end result of 7.5, but in my opinion you really need to fine tune this so that the numbers actually do mean something that directly correlates to the end result. All in all a very solid review.

Peace

[Kyle_Bennett]

Personally I read it all the way through and actually agreed with the end result of 7.5, but in my opinion you really need to fine tune this so that the numbers actually do mean something that directly correlates to the end result. All in all a very solid review.

Peace

Thanks for the kind words!

How exactly do you think your suggestion should be executed?

I think our 7.5 represents an average score for a machine that should have been way above average. Still, it was simply subjective at how we arrived at that. Do you have a formula in mind that we should apply? (In my world, the Bottom Line score is going to be 70% Stability..)

[Grimmda]

Have you tried Dell Computers? I hear they are great! They also make gaming machines..." So Kyle and crew my hats off to you! Now I can say hey go visit www.hardocp.com and check out their system reviews!
Peace

Overall I loved the review. I've spent the day pondering it's usefulness but the way I look at it is this. I can't wait until you start reviewing more affordable systems. I'll never refer anyone to a $4000 PC but it's a GREAT place to start for THIS site.

I will look at these reviews as better information for myself when that friend or family asks me "I need a PC, what should I buy" because right now I just say Dell. That's what most tech's I know say because of great price points and quality.

But once these types of reviews take off I will now be better informed about the products available on the market yet have the integrity the [H] has created and maintains.

[Kyle_Bennett]

Overall I loved the review. I've spent the day pondering it's usefulness but the way I look at it is this. I can't wait until you start reviewing more affordable systems. I'll never refer anyone to a $4000 PC but it's a GREAT place to start for THIS site.

I am with you on this. We will start at the high end and once we get our format down, we will move into mainstream as the readership develops a bit.

[Legomancer]

Excellent to hear that things will be broadening out of the high-end. I'm looking forward to seeing something I could get my friends and family actually reviewed by someone who knows their stuff (you).

[Skrying]

Well the fact of the matter is that VM replaced the non-stable parts with ones that worked perfectly. Should you not find value in a metric being applied, well then, don't pay it any attention. I wrestled with the idea of putting them in there or not and I think they are a neccessary evil. Advanced folks are not going to see the value in them, but rather pull it from the text and some other folks are going to want one page and that is it...


Yes, but you had to replace those parts yourself. Think of it this way, when something like that happened then there could have been a very large chance that the user would have had to wait a good while to get those parts and also maybe even have to ship the system in themselves. Also, what happens if the buyer doesnt know how to replace those?

[Kyle_Bennett]

Yes, but you had to replace those parts yourself. Think of it this way, when something like that happened then there could have been a very large chance that the user would have had to wait a good while to get those parts and also maybe even have to ship the system in themselves. Also, what happens if the buyer doesnt know how to replace those?

You are very correct and if you read I think we pointed that out in the review as well.

[Chris_Morley]

Yes, but you had to replace those parts yourself. Think of it this way, when something like that happened then there could have been a very large chance that the user would have had to wait a good while to get those parts and also maybe even have to ship the system in themselves. Also, what happens if the buyer doesnt know how to replace those?
I may not have made it clear that VM would assess the competency of the customer and decide whether or not to ship the system back for repair.

[Leon2ky]

Really my only complaint would be to compare it to other pre-built rigs and a custom rig you guys built.

[Scroatdog]

Yes, but you had to replace those parts yourself.


Well, in this instance, I think they did that because they know Kyle and Morley and what they were doing with the system.

[GeForceX]

Thanks for the kind words!

How exactly do you think your suggestion should be executed?

I think our 7.5 represents an average score for a machine that should have been way above average. Still, it was simply subjective at how we arrived at that. Do you have a formula in mind that we should apply? (In my world, the Bottom Line score is going to be 70% Stability..)

Err, I consider 5 to be *average*. You might want to consider a poll to see what the majority would consider 7.5 to be. Not that it matters but this is my numbers:

1 = Complete Trash / Barf / Other Insulting Terms.
2.5 = Very poor / Bad.
5 = Average / Fair / Needs work.
7.5 = Above expectations / Not Bad / Satisfactory.
10 = Extremely impressive / Must Buy.

I felt the company and system was approximately a 6.5. If they had zero problems with the dead component and stability with the bonus of being overclocked (although you're paying for it), I would've given it a solid 8 or above, which in other words means it's a quite good company to buy from.

Since you noted 70% would be counted for stability-- that company would be failing the test. Although I think you should rate how well your "hands-off" experience is more-- as in them taking care of the computer for you rather than you touching the insides for the sake of a broken component.

-J.

[Michael.R]

Excellent review guys, I was much more entertained then the 1 page reviews in Maximum PC (which is starting to feel like an advertising supplement).

In my opinion all the bases were covered thoroughly. I hope to see alot more coming soon.

My only complaint is I would have liked to see a picture of the side of the case with the panel off. I saw the two pictures but the rad was in the way, It would have been nice to see a shot of the whole case from the side to get an idea of all the cabling and how clean the look is. I guess it wouldnt have made mucha a difference because the rad blocks half the view though.

[GeForceX]

Well, in this instance, I think they did that because they know Kyle and Morley and what they were doing with the system.

Then that makes the entire review one-sided. Understandably they might've noted things such as them being able to ship back the PC but the bottom line remains-- the review was not done in that fashion. They did not return the computer back. They did not test their patience with their "incompetencies". They were simply acting as enthusiasts in this.

If they intend on having themselves mainstreamed, then they ought to have that perspective of them being new to computers. Although I do understand the intention behind the review-- that it was for builders or workers that simply do not have the time build for others or themselves. For that, the review does perfectly fine. But then again, they don't want to touch the inside case. Points should be drastically reduced if they're forced to touch the inside.

There has to be a firm boundary between what is acceptable and what is not acceptable.

-J.

[Kyle_Bennett]

Thanks for your thoughts GeForceX. Your opinions on this have been noted. No sense beating a dead horse. Thanks for the feedback it is highly appreciated, but restating your position over and over is not needed. Please let some others share their thoughts without having to deal with your direct arguments. Others have a right to their opinions as well.

[Matt Woller]

I think this is an awesome idea for [H], and I'm glad to see them "leading the pack", so to speak. The one thing I find most intriguing about this idea is that you as the reviewer truely are stressing the system. Sure, the video card issue would have been viewable from any reviewer, as even the most basic of reviews would include a gaming benchmark. However, what I don't think a publication such as Maximum PC or Computer Shopper would have ever unvieled is the stability issue involving the power supply.

I can think of no other publication or website where they would, quite literally, have the balls to run a quad Prime95 benchmarking test.

[Velocity_Micro]

Chris and Kyle,

I really enjoyed the review, and think you were dead on for knocking us for the failed motherboard (the v-regs were fried, but the PSU ultimately tested fine when it arrived back) and the wrong video card. The motherboard was a pre-production part, and the video card was also a pre-production testing mule we were using to build the numerous 840XE review units that went out while we waited for a shipment of the X850XT PE. That card was never to be shipped in any system, and we would certainly not expect to get that glaring fault past you guys. It was pure stupidity on our part. The unanswered support call was particularly embarrassing, but we discovered a phone system forwarding error at our service provider was the cause of that and was already fixed that weekend.

All were major failures on our part, and we deserved the scores. These are explanation, not excuses. Nuff said.

As for sending Chris a new board and PSU, it was after discussing the options with him and letting him decide how to fix the issue. Also available to him were returning the system to us for the repairs or having a local repair contractor visit him and install the new parts. Any customer would also have these options available to them, in accordance with our standard warranty coverage. This allows experienced user to fix problems themselves, while noobs are also taken care of with a little more hand holding.

I originally told Kyle how we were terrified to send a review to [H] and these are exactly the reasons why. You didn’t miss a thing. While I sincerely plead that all three of these missteps are anomalies that are way beyond our normal standards, I’m glad to let you decide. We are still happy to provide another review unit - anything you want next time to meet any price range. This time buy it anonymously and I guaranty to honor our return policy without the usual restocking fees. That’s the only way you can experience what any other buyer gets.

Thanks for the fair coverage.

Randy Copeland
President & CEO
Velocity Micro, Inc.

PS - I get involved in many customer support issues regularly, not just for reviewers. I also love answering sales calls - at least one or two everyday. I’m an enthusiast first.

[BoogerBomb]

Well I'll give you this at least you took the time to register and offer explanations and provide remedies for most of the problems mentioned. That is more than most head honchos would do.

EDIT: And as for being terrified about sending a review unit to HardOCP...I would be too lol because they know what they are talking about. Any company that is willing to send a review unit shows that they stand behind their product as they will find just about any flaw that there is versus and PC magazine.

[Jodiuh]

Do the people who fork down 500+ premium for a pre-built monster actually read these forums?

[BoogerBomb]

Do the people who fork down 500+ premium for a pre-built monster actually read these forums?

Gotta start somewhere. If people pass around the link to the reviews that the [H] does then they could eventually become a place that people start to look for for reviews.

[Skrying]

I'm very impressed to see you post on these boards. Its nice to see you get involved, and yes I must give it to you that sending one of your system to a real and hardcore site like [H]ardOCP does take balls.

You have shown that your company at the very least has a soul to it and is not just a mindless borg.

[tiraides]

I liked the review and agree -- along with everyone else -- that it was more thorough that anything you would see in the computer magazines. One thing that I noticed in the magazines, though, is that the different manufacturers (through their ad pages) often advertise competing systems with the same or similar specs from each other, with each manufacturer saying that their computers are better than everyone else's. I think that in the future you should review a group of computers from different manufacturers with similar (if not identical) setups and, in addition to the benchmarks and testing, explain what each manufacturer did to make their computer "unique" (i.e., did they overclock their system to reach a certain point, did they use proprietary hardware, etc.).

[0mega]

Chris and Kyle,

I really enjoyed the review, and think you were dead on for knocking us for the failed motherboard (the v-regs were fried, but the PSU ultimately tested fine when it arrived back) and the wrong video card. The motherboard was a pre-production part, and the video card was also a pre-production testing mule we were using to build the numerous 840XE review units that went out while we waited for a shipment of the X850XT PE. That card was never to be shipped in any system, and we would certainly not expect to get that glaring fault past you guys. It was pure stupidity on our part. The unanswered support call was particularly embarrassing, but we discovered a phone system forwarding error at our service provider was the cause of that and was already fixed that weekend.

All were major failures on our part, and we deserved the scores. These are explanation, not excuses. Nuff said.

As for sending Chris a new board and PSU, it was after discussing the options with him and letting him decide how to fix the issue. Also available to him were returning the system to us for the repairs or having a local repair contractor visit him and install the new parts. Any customer would also have these options available to them, in accordance with our standard warranty coverage. This allows experienced user to fix problems themselves, while noobs are also taken care of with a little more hand holding.

I originally told Kyle how we were terrified to send a review to [H] and these are exactly the reasons why. You didn’t miss a thing. While I sincerely plead that all three of these missteps are anomalies that are way beyond our normal standards, I’m glad to let you decide. We are still happy to provide another review unit - anything you want next time to meet any price range. This time buy it anonymously and I guaranty to honor our return policy without the usual restocking fees. That’s the only way you can experience what any other buyer gets.

Thanks for the fair coverage.

Randy Copeland
President & CEO
Velocity Micro, Inc.

PS - I get involved in many customer support issues regularly, not just for reviewers. I also love answering sales calls - at least one or two everyday. I’m an enthusiast first.

DAMN your a guy id be proud to work under, that reply took balls! truly [H] worthy :)

and if you read back, have you tried any other watercooling solutions like coolermasters mini kit? performs VERY well in all the reviews ive seen :)

[icthus13]

Kudos to Randy Copeland for replying on the boards. I have to say that I did check out VM's site after reading that review and played around with a few systems. I did note that they had good warranty options such as at home service on some of them, which eliminated some of my worries about the review and having the head guy help with tech support. Though I wish that Michael Dell would answer two of his tech support calls a day :p

Kyle, you should definitely take Randy up on his offer to review another system and grab something in a price range I could reccomend to my mom or a non-gaming friend!

[Velocity_Micro]

DAMN your a guy id be proud to work under, that reply took balls! truly [H] worthy :)

and if you read back, have you tried any other watercooling solutions like coolermasters mini kit? performs VERY well in all the reviews ive seen :)

We've looked at the CoolerMaster unit and liked it very much. It will be harder for us to ship installed in units than the system we used for this review, and we love the SD unit. Regretfully, we have to consider shipping and warranty in our product designs as much as performance sometimes.

[Skrying]

Kudos to Randy Copeland for replying on the boards. I have to say that I did check out VM's site after reading that review and played around with a few systems. I did note that they had good warranty options such as at home service on some of them, which eliminated some of my worries about the review and having the head guy help with tech support. Though I wish that Michael Dell would answer two of his tech support calls a day :p

Kyle, you should definitely take Randy up on his offer to review another system and grab something in a price range I could reccomend to my mom or a non-gaming friend!

Well a non-gamer can easily find a system for around $500 that will meet all of their needs.

I think great price range is the $1,500~$2,000 one. Top tier gaming, but with a more real life budget.

[Velocity_Micro]

I'm moving my future responses to the Velocity Micro (http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=913990) thread. - Thanks

[sabrewolf732]

If they are advertising an 850XT PE, and send you a too-hot, highly-overclocked 850XT non-PE, that is a problem. If they are advertising a retail product at 4.0GHz and have you clocking down to 3.6GHz for testing, which causes you to discover a deficiency in the attention to detail in the cooling system installation, both build quality and stability scores should suffer..

QFT, If I was reviewer, they would have failed horribly. They cant adv. 4GHz and have you clock down to torture test. That is the biggest bull I have ever heard. Why dont the just adv. 5GHz dual core p4, but say if you run any load you have to clock down
:rolleyes:

[davidj]

Let's define "tech support" and what it really means regarding a Full Comp System(OEM) and the purchaser. What this really means to the buyer.

I bought the E-System (in sig below) from Monarchcomputer.com and the 3.5 floppy did not work on arrival. I also purchased the extra "tech support" that made me "feel" safe. :rolleyes: Well all you get is a guy in a hell of a rush on the phone(most of the times). After 2 weeks it was determined that it was the data cable from the mobo and not a bad pwr connection. So I was told to remove it, check my manual and good luck.

For example when you are not an auto mechanic and some rushed guy over the phone says "just change your fuel induction thermistor and you'll be ok, thanks, buy, click". This is virtually what I got and what you will get as well. If little Billy, your neighbor, uncle Fred or sue wants to game but are not PC savy, removing mobo cables, fan cables, etc might as well be brain sugery.

My point is if you are not PC savy, the only "tech support" that will be of any real use is the on site option. Or just save your money and take it to a local tech in your area.

Yes I would buy another custom/prebuilt game rig, but never long distance again. Because if something goes wrong, "tech support" will be oh so polite. But when the dust settles, YOU will be performing the sugery, so save your money or get the on site tech support.

So if you are fortunate to get your super rig running flawlessly, it will beat most basement game rigs out there imho. But if you ever have any serious technical problems you are in trouble. I mean that Monarch will not let you rma a rig until YOU have swapped out everything including the power supply, mobo, all cables, gpu etc.

So what is really meant by "tech support" is you get Bob the geek telling you to replace parts. They will send them to you, YOU install them IF you can and cross your fingers. Part after part after part after part, week after week after week.

I hope that the [H] staff can shed some light on what these companies really mean by "tech support". Not some PR response made by some employee but what they actually do in the real world.

My system eats Doom3 for lunch at high rez and any game for that matter. It is one heck of a system. Just make sure that you understand what your pre-builder really means by "tech support". :rolleyes:

:)

[Scarceas]

Err, I consider 5 to be *average*. You might want to consider a poll to see what the majority would consider 7.5 to be. Not that it matters but this is my numbers:

1 = Complete Trash / Barf / Other Insulting Terms.
2.5 = Very poor / Bad.
5 = Average / Fair / Needs work.
7.5 = Above expectations / Not Bad / Satisfactory.
10 = Extremely impressive / Must Buy.



I agree with this scaling...

[clipo]

Good review and a refreshing change to other system reviews i enjoyed the read and couldnt wait to see the photos of the insides, and thats my only argument is that more photos would have been liked im a photo junkie when it comes to internals and i strongly believe that a photo is worth a 1000 words, so may be next time you could take lots of photos and have a seperate page for just them photos from every angle detailing every component and layout and build quality.

I loved the review from the refering a friend to a company when I dont have the time or will to build a quality system for them and give it the love that is needed when building a real pc thats not going to fall over all the time, the comments about the temperature not being right and the level of detail you went to testing is much liked and wanted in the future.

All in all a great review and good attention to detail keep up the good work and more photos please ;)

[Diriel]

@Kyle,
Regarding a grading system. I agree that stability is job 1, also add in the sellers Warranty service as well in that job 1 rating. Personally I know folks who value warranty service equal to or even higher than initial quality. Their reasoning is simply WHEN something goes wrong eventually I want to know it will be taken care of.
-- So here are my thoughts on a rating service: Creat a Stability / Warranty section that has the numeric check points that directly contribute to the bottom line number. (also put in a 'legend' at the bottom explaining what the bottom line score means. I.E. 7.5 = an over all average experience. We had issues but they were taken care of in a professional and courteous manner. After which all was well. 7.5 would equate to an 'A', 'B', 'C', 'D', 'F', grading system as used in most educational systems.
-- use the Other check points to Add or Subtract over all points from the bottom line score. I.E. Presentation and Packaging would be: Add To, No Add, Subtract from the bottom line score. Gaming Experience too would likely be Add To, No Add, Subtract from bottom line score. In this manner you can essentially do your 70% is for stability ect while reserving 30% for merrits / demerits and maintain Ease of Use that everyone can immediately grasp. Simple and easily tweaked system.

Peace

[alose]

Overall the review was pretty decent. I would have liked to see more testing of the various components. Even a mention of how long it took to install games (and what drive was used) would be usefull. The benhmarks should have been more reproducible so someone could compare with thier equipement. I agree with others that thier should have been a baseline to provide a standard comparison, maybe something like an AMD machine, and an Intel, with both an ATI and Nvidia Graphics.

I should point out that MS DUO's from Sony come with adapters to use in regular memorystick readers. To my knowledge, there are no MS DUO readers.

[ufster8]

I don't know whether anyone else brought it up yet but I sure would like to see all systems set up as dual-boot so we can see the compatibility of the systems with various OS's, by various OS's I mean Linux :D I always check my hardware for Linux compatibility before I buy , check how it performs under linux because that's where I do my daily routine and work, for gaming I boot Windows just like common folks do. :p It sucks to know that you need a kernel recompile for some nic to work after you bought the system. I know that for performance/gaming systems you are better off not doing this sort of evaluation as their buyers couldn't care less for Linux but for mainstream and entry level systems it would do great. BTW I hope you review more mainstream and entry level since most of us build our main rigs but buy/recommend pre-built computers for simpler tasks such as home/small office file servers, internet boxes etc..

[MrMitch]

Overall i thought the review was very nice, very informative.

What i want to see is a standard "tech support trouble shooting session". Say maybe open up the device manager and disable the ethernet controller on every single review you do. Call up tech support and start the clock, without asking for managers or anything like that, see if they can lead you to simply enabling the controller or something like that. This is only an example, but it'd be interesting to see what companies could get the problem solved in minutes and who would send out a box telling you to send it in for bench repairs. Might not be possible cause the large oem's may track serial numbers and see its the [H]ard review unit, but it'd be interesting.

[ashmedai]

I like the comparison chart idea, and giving their tech support at least a subjective evaluation.

The little 4x prime torture run was great and I'd like to continue to see similar in all the evals, also a few passes in memtest couldn't hurt.

In my mind at least, the concerns with a prebuild are that the quality and performance of the system won't be up to a well made self-built system. Or rather that if I make it, I can make sure it's well made, where as a prebuild is likely to be built with production costs in mind over quality and performance.

If possible it would be nice to have a list of the components that are in the system, especially as it's not inconcievable that the vendor could change their parts list while keeping the same label.

[davidj]

Another "tech support" or warranty issue that I feel is important is local (in your area) "tech support". When I had problems with my Monarch pre-built rig, they would not authourize, BestBuy, CompUSA, CircuitCity, RadioShack, or anyone to work on my rig.

But they will authorize "me" (or any hardware novice) to stick my hands inside of the case because it does not cost them anything. You see they would have to pay RadioShack or BestBuy etc.. :( :mad:

So please verify IF your pre-builder has authorized service centers available in your area or at all for that matter. I was very, very, very pissed to have just spent over $3000 dollars, and with a city and yellow pages full of PC tech professionals I was not "authorized" to utilize them.


Plz do not make my mistakes. Verify the "real world" practices of your pre-builder before you give them your money.

I am not bashing prebuilders only sharing my experience wiith other [H] members. If my experience would have been perfect I would have shared that as well.

My next super rig will be from a pre-builder for sure, but it will be a local or in my area only purchase.

Plz, plz,plz verify before you buy.

davidj



:)

[Shakezilla]

Only in an [H] system review does the PSU fail :D

I demand a drop test!


I agree! A 4 foot drop test because. What if I need to carry it and I drop it ohhh noes 4Gs down the drain(unless it lands on the dog)

Good review, it seemed like you took it a lil easy on them about the vid card and torture test tho.

[Chris_Morley]

Another "tech support" or warranty issue that I feel is important is local (in your area) "tech support". When I had problems with my Monarch pre-built rig, they would not authourize, BestBuy, CompUSA, CircuitCity, RadioShack, or anyone to work on my rig.

But they will authorize "me" (or any hardware novice) to stick my hands inside of the case because it does not cost them anything. You see they would have to pay RadioShack or BestBuy etc.. :( :mad:

So please verify IF your pre-builder has authorized service centers available in your area or at all for that matter. I was very, very, very pissed to have just spent over $3000 dollars, and with a city and yellow pages full of PC tech professionals I was not "authorized" to utilize them.


Plz do not make my mistakes. Verify the "real world" practices of your pre-builder before you give them your money.

I am not bashing prebuilders only sharing my experience wiith other [H] members. If my experience would have been perfect I would have shared that as well.

My next super rig will be from a pre-builder for sure, but it will be a local or in my area only purchase.

Plz, plz,plz verify before you buy.

davidj
:) I can understand your frustration about getting your machine fixed, but believe me, you never, ever, ever, never ever, want ANYONE from Best Buy, CompUSA, etc, to work on your custom gaming rig. That's absolutely the worst thing that could happen. As much as an inconvenience as it is, the only surefire way to get the best tech support is to have the company pay to ship the machine back for repairs. You just can't beat tech support from the company that built it...that's why I like the idea of Falcon's overnight service so much...you may pay a premium, but you get your computer back...fast!

I know there are plenty of [H] members that know their shit that work at Best Buy, CompUSA, etc., and I'm not trying to insult them...it's just that not near enough Best Buy, CompUSA, etc. employees read [H] for me to arbitrarily trust any of those stores I may walk into. ;)

[lozaning]

i know this is kind of off topic but i think it would be cool if you guys did a [H]ard review of laptops. such things as reall battery life and multimedia performence would be cool.

[davidj]

Morley-

I'm glad that you "feel my pain". hehe

I agree with you Sir, I'm sure that you will also agree that having a novice rewire a PSU or replace all of the entire "guts" of the rig before you can get an RMA is just as scary.

I am still astonished that with all of the PC Pros in the YellowPages(not BB), not one tech organization can fix a PC. But the real killer was that a NOVICE will have to literally gut out a PC before you can RMA it. So evan if BB or CompUSA or whomever is a scary thought, having little Billy to rewire a mobo or change out a PSU and everything else is ridiculous. This kind of "tech support" cannot be blamed on BB.

I do not see the logic of a tech @ BB is off limits, but a novice like little Billy can route around inside of the case. :confused: :confused:

My only recomendation is to get the on-site warranty. But make sure that you read the fine print concerning service hours, length of the contract, is the coverage 100% or partial, does it cover software, hardware, both, etc. :)

All of my future super rigs will be custom rigs, I'm just going to do it slightly different the next times.

Again, those of us that are custom rig customers pay $2000, $3000, $4000 and up for our systems. How would you feel if your car broke down and you CANNOT take it to a mechanic? But they will shoot you an email with diagrams and shcematics in .pdf format and YOU fix the car.

Again these super rigs are just that, SUPER, but when something goes wrong(and sooner or later it will) then what?????

Good luck all!

Thnx

Davidj

[QwertyJuan]

I think that Chris did an excellent job on the review.

QJ

[Chris_Morley]

I think that Chris did an excellent job on the review.

QJ
You're biased. =)

[Chris_Morley]

Morley-

I'm glad that you "feel my pain". hehe

I agree with you Sir, I'm sure that you will also agree that having a novice rewire a PSU or replace all of the entire "guts" of the rig before you can get an RMA is just as scary.

I am still astonished that with all of the PC Pros in the YellowPages(not BB), not one tech organization can fix a PC. But the real killer was that a NOVICE will have to literally gut out a PC before you can RMA it. So evan if BB or CompUSA or whomever is a scary thought, having little Billy to rewire a mobo or change out a PSU and everything else is ridiculous. This kind of "tech support" cannot be blamed on BB.

I do not see the logic of a tech @ BB is off limits, but a novice like little Billy can route around inside of the case. :confused: :confused:

My only recomendation is to get the on-site warranty. But make sure that you read the fine print concerning service hours, length of the contract, is the coverage 100% or partial, does it cover software, hardware, both, etc. :)

All of my future super rigs will be custom rigs, I'm just going to do it slightly different the next times.

Again, those of us that are custom rig customers pay $2000, $3000, $4000 and up for our systems. How would you feel if your car broke down and you CANNOT take it to a mechanic? But they will shoot you an email with diagrams and shcematics in .pdf format and YOU fix the car.

Again these super rigs are just that, SUPER, but when something goes wrong(and sooner or later it will) then what?????

Good luck all!

Thnx

Davidj I know it seem strange, but those on-site warranties are serviced by 3rd party companies, that may or may not be qualified to service specially configured gaming machines. Your best bet is a company that is willing to expedite a shipment of your pc back to their depot, where you can get your machine serviced by the same people who built it. In the case of Velocity Micro, I told them I was qualified to do the work myself, and they assured me that if I was a regular customer who was not comfortable with doing it myself, they would ship it back and fix it themselves. I have no reason to believe that they lied to me on that. But, they are not the only company that provides that kind of service. Falcon NW and BOXX (who I recently worked for) are two off the top of my head...

[davidj]

OK Morley, now you tell me. hehe. I should have purchased from VM or BOXX. The info that you have just provided will save alot of people an expensive lesson. Thnx

I feel that this section of the [H] is very valuble and informative. It is and will be more popular than some have predicted.

I think that most pre-builders are great, I'm not a console guy so they are my heroes. But just like in any industry there are a few that you have to be careful of.

One other thing that is sure as death and taxes is that electronics will eventually fail. WHAT THEN??? :confused: :confused: That is why I feel that the tech support/warranty part of future reviews is vital.

I feel that this part of future reviews should dig a little deeper. The info that the [H] provides is great and FREE. Just giving my honest opinion that the thread starter asked for. :)

Thnx!

[GeForceX]

Again, those of us that are custom rig customers pay $2000, $3000, $4000 and up for our systems. How would you feel if your car broke down and you CANNOT take it to a mechanic? But they will shoot you an email with diagrams and shcematics in .pdf format and YOU fix the car.

Davidj

Hahaha, very good point I had to add.

-J.