Anyone help a n00b make up for his foolishness?

[CardiaK]

I've been building boxes for about 10 years, but I never bothered to learn anything about PSUs.

I just put together my new rig (A64 on MSI K8N SLI mobo with 6800GT) and shortly before everything arrived today, I read enough to now think that the cool (looking) PSU that I bought, while I thought it was "beefy" because it said 550w, is not only crap, but is incompatible crap.

From what I've gathered here, it looks like I need a PSU with a 24pin mobo connector, it has to have the -5v rail, (so says the MSI mobo manual) the 12v rail should be rated for at least 20 amps, (but more is better), and when I eventually get another card to go SLI, the PSU needs 2 12v connectors with the 6pin PCI-E connector.

So what are my choices? I read the stickies, but there really isn't a "These are the PSUs for SLI rigs" thread. Well, check that, there is one, but the author basically says, "get the retarded expensive one."

I want a good PSU, I'd rather not spend the cash for the aforementioned retarded expensive PSU. If you guys let me know that there just isn't a good solution for ~$100, then I guess I'll take my lumps and get what I need to get.

My box has a black/green motif going on, so a black PSU would be a major plus, and a black one with a green accent or light would be even better, but not at the expense of major performance.

Thanks guys, this forum has opened my eyes to yet another seedy subculture of geekery.

[CardiaK]

I guess I have a couple of questions too.

Does the board have to have two 12v rails, or can it just have one? And do both rails need to be in the 20+A range or can I combine the amounts? I know, I'm a n00b, so I have to ask.

I've read some propaganda about having two rails so the CPU can have it's own and the power-hungry PCI-E video cards get thier own rail so there's no "noise" or whatever.

I did a search on newegg (where I bought the crappy PSU that I'm RMA'ing) for -5v along with dual +12v rails, and there ain't much there, just a couple of units, and the only one that doesn't have a price that makes me cringe is this guy:

FORTRON SOURCE 460W Power Supply, Model "FSP460-60PFN-S" -RETAIL
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=17-104-932&depa=0

Then there's this one which has the same model# (minus the "S") as the Fortron and is the same price, but it's called an EPS12V instead of an ATX12V:
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=17-101-006&depa=0

All the others are like $170 or more. Do I really have to go this high? I might be lightly OC'ing the proc and the 6800GT, but nothing too serious.

[BillR]

You buy stuff with no research yet you call what you really need retarded. Interesting concept.

The first link you posted should work just fine based on what you have told us. It’s a newer spec PSU designed to deal with what your mobo manufacture calls for.

Keep in mind Antec, Enermax and Fortron are all pretty good products, you would be ok to choose from any of those. PP&C is pretty ultimate buy may be more then you want to or can spend. You got some state of the art components there that require high current.

Today's systems require more power then ever before thus a new spec. was born. For years we took PSU's for granted, we don't have that luxury anymore if we don't want to break parts.

Luck

[Ice Czar]

1. MSI are idiots to employ the -5V rail
2. an EPS12V supply will have an 8 pin auxillary +12V mobo connector, you need a 4 pin
3. OCZ Powerstream, reliable ATX12V v1.3 w\ 24 pin native and the -5V rail (as long as its not the 600W)
4. If you read the stickies, what are your amp requirements?

but if you buy the PCP&C SLi (which is black BTW :p)
when you upgrade to the next gen of PCI-E cards that suck down 150W per card you might not need a new PSU
its even possible with the Powerstream

much like you have to spend 10 times as mich on a heatsink compared to a P2 or K6
you need to reliably power all that extra computing power
and that costs money SMPS arent "simple" devices

[CardiaK]

Thanks a lot guys.

Ice, so are you saying then that the Fortron PSU that I had linked to is no good even though Bill said it would be ok? It says it's ATX12V, but when I did a google search for it, I saw it listed somewhere else as a "24pin + 8pin" configuration; but then there's that Chenbro that I linked to that has almost the same model number but is listed as EPS12V.

Again, sorry for being a n00b, but I'm still pretty confused.

Do I need 2 separate 12v rails or not? No, right? Because according to what I've been seeing, (and Newegg's descriptions seem pretty vague), of all the Modstreams, only that 600W one that you said NOT to get actually has the separate rails.

I just wish I could easily see which connectors are on which PSU and compare that with the amperage ratings. Is there a good site that has all this information?

As for my amp requirements, I JUST got my components last night, so I haven't gotten all the amp draws figured yet, but it's nothing crazy:

- MSI Neo4 Platinum SLI mobo
- AMD A64 3200+ 939 90nm (aiming to OC to 250FSB)
- Zalman 7700 HSF
- 6800GT (light OC or no OC, only one for now, but will likely add another later)
- Audigy2 ZS
- Video Capture Card (no tuner)
- 1 cold cathode light
- 1 ATA133 Hard Drive
- DVD-ROM
- DVD-RW
- 3 case fans (2x80mm, 1x120)

Again, thanks for all your help, and sorry I'm such an idiot when it comes to PSUs.

[CardiaK]

I guess what I really want to know is, what PSUs have the 24pin connector, -5v rail, the 4 pin CPU connector, and two 6 pin PCI-E connectors, with enough power to handle a somewhat OC'd processor and perhaps some light OC on the video cards? (as well as the other components I listed above)

The 510 SLI is perfect for all of these, except it's like $250 bucks. I've come now to understand that I'm not going to get out of this spending under $100 on the PSU, but the 510 SLI is about double what I'd want to spend.

[Bullitt]

My intention is not to sound cold..

Well, new bleeding edge technology isnt cheap. You've assembled a system that people would saw off their left nut for and the most integral part of that system (or any high-end system) is the powerplant that makes it run, you're willing to cut corners on? :)

If you want stability, especially with bleeding-edge, high-powered systems, you gotta have a PSU thats going to back that ass up.

The PCP&C might be overkill, but its direct competitors don't match the quality and support you will get with this device. Tack on 5 year warranty, tack on the specifications of their product, I find that its worth the extra $50.


Ask yourself, how much have you already spent on the system? Its a lot. Obviously money doesnt play _that_ big a role in your system build, so why not go ahead and get that pcp&c and not worry? :D

The days of generic PSUs are numbered, in more ways than one.

[CardiaK]

Thanks for the advice, and I certainly don't think you sound cold by laying the facts out like that.

In all honesty, this is definitely the first "badass" system I've put together; in the past I've always gone for the best bang for the buck components; this is really my first deviation from that.

So now that I've spent all this money, I guess I'm backtracking a bit, especially since at the time, I was like "damn, $75 for a new PSU, well, I guess I need it." Imagine how I feel now with people telling me I need a $250 PSU.

You say I should just spring for the 510 SLI and "not worry." Does that mean that any other PSU I get that ISN'T the 510 SLI is something I have to worry about? And if it really was only $50 more, I'd definitely get it; hell, if it was double the $75 Aspire that I'm RMA'ing, I'd get it. But it's $175 more than that $75 piece of crap, and that's what getting to me.

Like I said before, I'm resigned now to spending more money on the PSU, but $150 is the upper reaches of what I'd like to spend.

[CardiaK]

I guess it's also important to note that I'm kind of stuck getting it an Newegg, since I'm returning the PSU there, and I'm not entirely sure that they're going to just give me a straight refund when there's nothing wrong with the product they gave me.

I already have to pay the "idiot tax" restocking fee.

[=lks= ka druma]

enermax has two sli ready psu's that aren't too expensive. You should see if they provide what you need. @ newegg to.


LKS

[Mr. Stryker]

Hello, CardiaK, I was on my friend's laptop reading the HardOCP forums and ran into your thread, and then registered on the forums right away. I realized that you needed help with power supplies. From what I've read from other two people's posts about PP&C (PC Power & Cooling), I can assure you that their power supplies ARE the best out there. They're handmade, not from robots, and have way much more advanced electrical controllers inside the PP&C power supplies. If I were to purchase a cheap 500 watt PSU, I'd rather get a 300 watt PP&C PSU. I've had my PP&C 350W PSU for three years and I've put it in three different cases, it's never let me down.

-Mr. Stryker

[Ice Czar]

well until very recently the only nvidia SLi certified supply was the 510 or its big brother
thats not to say other supplies wouldnt do it

regarding dual rails, no they arent required
they are a strategem adopted from the EPS12V spec to increase stability
by isolating the fluctuation in the load of drives from the CPU
a good well regulated supply will be able to handle that without the dual rails

regarding -5V an obsolescent rail last employed for ISA slots
has been dropped from the latest spec ATX12V v2.01, which is your dual rail 24 pin supplies w\ 4 pin aux +12V mobo connector
the previous spec ATX12V v2.0 had it but no one actually built that spec
those are also dual rail and 24 pin, but before any where built the next revision dropped the -5V

ATX12V v1.3 supplies have a single +12V rail, and natively a 20 pin mobo connector
(and 4 pin aux)

there are hybrid v1.3 supploes with more amps in a gibven wattage class devoted to the +12V rail (as defined by v2.0) and the 24 pin + 4 pin aux, and they have the -5V rail

the Fortron Blue Storm is an ATX12V v2.01 supply and lacks the -5V
the OCZ Powerstream is an ATX12V v1,.3 hybrid has the -5V, enough amps, the 24 pin the 4 pin but not the native dual PCI-E connectors

my first choice in any SLi system would be the PCP&C
consider these points
the bloody system cost an arm and a leg, its alot to risk
the PCP&C is the finest supply in the formfactor
its SLi certified
your basically talking about a workstation that would put $100,000 SGI boxes to shame just a few years ago and your quibbling about $70

that said there are other supplies that will power it, a great number in fact
Seasonic S12 600W
Many Enermax
FSP Blue Storm
Powerstreams
ect

but you need to consider a few things
ideally you want only the Graphics Card on any one power lead
(wire starnd from the supply)
why? Noise & load stability
illustrative example of noise (http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/ocz-powerlead.html)

so either count the connectors and use the adapters
or get a supply with dedicated PCI-E leads

also that the PCI-E spec has been doubled for power consumption from 75W per card to 150Watts per card
all on the +12V rail, they arent out yet but eventually...
thus an upgrade may necessitate a new PSU
the 510 might still be relevant, the 850ETX would certainly be, but then its a true EPS12V w\ 4 +12V rails putting out 60A
its for modern workstations w\ dual CPU, SLi and say a big RAID, if you think the 510 is pricey dont bother to look up the 850 :p
(roughly double wieghing in at 8lbs and about $460)

[Ice Czar]

http://takaman.jp/D/?M=PbQCQbdHhSCSkiH3kG5I2VgrG5HEYbZAZavHCMZ&english

Max Theoretical of
30A +12V
425W

(note the USB\IEEE is actually the 120mm fan and that I chose the highest +12V rail capture card)

realworld worse case senerio estimated at
20A +12V
305W
(post spinup rull draw GPUs\CPU + DVD spinup)

keep in mind that most supplues need to be derated for temperature when comparing these figures to thier rated amps
the PCP&C and OCZ are exceptions (rated at 50C & 40C respectively)
some need at least 1\3rd deducted while others are somewhere inbetween that and zero

[Ronbo]

1. MSI are idiots to employ the -5V rail
2. an EPS12V supply will have an 8 pin auxillary +12V mobo connector, you need a 4 pin
3. OCZ Powerstream, reliable ATX12V v1.3 w\ 24 pin native and the -5V rail (as long as its not the 600W)
4. If you read the stickies, what are your amp requirements?

but if you buy the PCP&C SLi (which is black BTW :p)
when you upgrade to the next gen of PCI-E cards that suck down 150W per card you might not need a new PSU
its even possible with the Powerstream

much like you have to spend 10 times as mich on a heatsink compared to a P2 or K6
you need to reliably power all that extra computing power
and that costs money SMPS arent "simple" devices


#1- Agreed
#2-Yes for the most part, but my Antec TP550 EPS has both the 8 pin and 4 pin 12v aux connector, but no -5 that I can tell.

And for SMPS not being a "simple device", I repaired them in industrial electronics for 10 years and I couldn't agree more, they can be real bears to fix, and you always cross your fingers the first time you apply power after a repair. :) there is a reason a good switching supply can cost 500 bucks or more, and a reason the switching power supply in a TV uses 5 or 10 bucks worth of parts :) I guess the question is which end of the design spectrum do you want powering your $200+ Ram, $200+ CPU, $400 video card, and $200 motherboard. When you look at those numbers closely again, you can see the $200 to $240 for a PCP&C are not so out of line for the quality you are getting.

[Ice Czar]

ahh Ronbo glad to see you we need more EE in here ;)

and just to belabor the point somemore :p
Switching-Mode Power Supply Design (http://www.smpstech.com/)
Power supply circuit design problems, solutions, tutorials, tips, and resources.
A website about power supply design for power supply designers.

reading in there can make the hair on the back of your neck standup if you dnt have a really good supply :p

[CardiaK]

Thanks a lot for all of your help guys.

Ice, I can see that you're generally regarded as the Jedi Master around here, and your comments were really helpful.

I just got my RMA approved for a refund on the incompatible supply I bought, so I'm hoping that I just a credit back on my credit card. (Actually, it's not like I'm never going to spend that cash at newegg ever again)

To hear all of you guys wax philosophical on the true awesomeness of the 510 SLI, maybe I should spring for it.

[Ice Czar]

Ive found newegg to be a very reliable vendor
and they are highly regarded around here even without the ad dollars they supply to keep this forum up and running
but they dont hold your hand when it comes to compatibility issues
sort of beyond the scope of their business model
but you do have us for that ;)

The PCP&C 510 is a completely safe bet
you can get by with less of course
I have a pretty stringent criteria for recommending it

1. overclocking
(bar none the most stable supply with the lowest AC Ripple available)

2. you actually need the amps
(which your near, and could easily grow into)

3. expense of the system your powering
(cheap insurance policy, throw in a UPS and your golden)

toss in the SLi requirement to that and it makes even more sense
in here our focus tends towards the upgrade path, the quality of power and overclocking
in say other PSU forums thats slightly different
SPCR for instance is all about just meeting the needs for a given config and no more
with the highest efficiency, least heat and noise, a different approach but equally viable
depends on what you value

going after both objectives generally leads you to modding
a powerful super stable but silent supply with a long lifespan and upgrade path
generally you "extend' the PSU to include the case
feed it its own cool outside air, swap out fans\add fans maintaining the overall static pressure and airflow but quieter