Need Mod Help on a Sale Problem

[Cross]

OK, Oh, Chris and my self had set up a deal to ship him an iMac and a iBook. There was an initial problem caused by myself of not knowing I had removed a ram stick from the iBook awhile back and I told him before the unit ever shipped and supplied a replacement that we agreed on. Everything was fine and the following items were shipped,

iMac Blue 350mhz G3 CDROM 256 SDRAM and a 10GIG up from a 6GIG. ALso one keyboard and no mouse. It had OS X Panther no discs included.

iBook G3 CDROM, missing escape key, Blue in perfect working order. Had 64MB Memory or more can't remember exactly, it was supposed to be more but I had taken the memory module out it was my fault. With adaptor, YO-YO.

I agreed to subtract 10 dollars and up the hd on the iMac to 10GIG. Now the items were shipped very well packaged from my location to his per USPS. I used foam on the front and back of the screen and computer (iMac) and bubble wrapped the iBook. I used newspaper as a lining just for easy fill space and pop corn and bubble wrap for most important areas and foam on the box side of the iMac as well. I can't remember if I bubble wrapped the iBook adaptor so when I was told the adaptor was broke I offered my replacement for it. However the units were very well packaged with appropriate materials in a box that housed them. The box was a tight fit for the iMac, which is why I used foam on it. However the box was very well packaged and looked over by myself, my NCOIC, and my complex managers pre there shipping agreements for leaving packages in the office. The system was packaged as discribed. I know Oh, CHris will list how it arrived but basically it was not in the condition I sent it. I was using the iMac until I sent it as a back up for my laptop that went out. The iBook was tested right before it left as well. Everything was in good working order and arrived as I told him. Now with how it arrived we need some help from the mods to sort this out. We would like to take the next step as I do not want to see things end badly but I feel I made sure that the system was packaged safely and correctly and would like outside input. Thanks!

[ChrisOh]

Hi Mods, this is my reply. I just picked up the package from the post office and I noticed that the box itself was as big as the imac and the clerks told me that i was rolling off the shelves (overpacked). Here's the email I wrote to him:

Hi Elliott, I just picked up the package and I am VERY disappointed at the packaging. The box was ROLLING because it was so packed, the people at the post office just shook their heads. When I opened the package, here's what I found

1) iMac front fascia is broken off, I snapped it back on but there was a prong missing (broken off I assume)
2) iMac front left corner is bent from the pressure
3) iMac is missing it's ram slot door
4) iBook was scuffed
5) iBook A/C adapter end was bent so it cannot even properly plug into the iBook
6) iBook screen is off center
7) iMac screen is off axis
8) Something broke off inside the unit, I hear a rattling sound from the inside

I am very disappointed that you decided to ship the computers without any protection, so I am asking that you please refund me my money and pay me for return shipping to get these units back to you. Please go on AIM so we can talk about this.

Thanks,
Chris

My heatware is under Chris and I'll take pictures in a few hours after my batteries charge.

[ChrisOh]

Here is a AIM chat log from today:

DigitlHail: hey
CrossSSX: hello
DigitlHail: alright, first off, the imac barely fit into the box, there was literally no spacing in between 2 of the box walls and the unit
DigitlHail: and on the other side, the ibook was jammed in between the imac and the wall of the box
CrossSSX: THats why I used foam there
DigitlHail: i'll take pictures in a few minutes
DigitlHail: the ibook was only covered with newspaper, the bubblewrap was on the bottom of the bo
DigitlHail: x
CrossSSX: The ibook has popcorn and newspaper then it itself was bubble wrapped
DigitlHail: when you send a computer, there should be at least 3 inches of clearance on all sides
CrossSSX: THe ibook was wrapped and quite frankly I did not have a bigger box I had to go ask local stores for that one
DigitlHail: i described the rest in the email, the biggest problem i have is the AC adapter for the ibook was bent because it was squished by the imac
DigitlHail: the post office literally told me the package was rolling off the shelves
CrossSSX: The post office had nothing to just fit the iMac. Again that was why I used foam on the front and back to make sure it was secure and had help to do it
CrossSSX: I can send you another I have another of those that I will accept responsibilty for because I do not think I put bubble wrap around it
DigitlHail: well the fact of the matter is I have a damaged imac, an ibook with a off center screen, and a bent AC adapter, i'd like to arrange a return
CrossSSX: It was not when I packaged it thats for sure, the post office checked me as well. I asked them to put fragile on it as well
CrossSSX: ANd the other fact is I went out of my way to always be honest with you in this, I never once mislead you. I told you when I made a mistake and offered a gracious change to the deal to try and make up for that which you agreed with. The box had no problems when it left my house, went to my apartment office, was checked by the manager (per there rules for safety) and then was picked up by the postal worker who I told to make sure to put fragile stickers on. I had the box pre inspected by my NCOIC (I am military because he was getting me the packing supplies from supply). There is def. a problem however I do not think it is fair that you blame it on me. I worked very hard to make sure that evferything would not move and was more than packaged securly
DigitlHail: if it's not your fault, it's the post office's fault, did you get insurance on the package?
CrossSSX: I do not know I normally only do that at the buyers request. I have my invoice here but it shows nothing about it just the weight and confirmation. Its from paypal so I would have to go back through paypal and check
DigitlHail: when you purchase something off the forums, it is always the seller's responsibility to get the buyer his items in the shape as described
DigitlHail: and there were no fragile stickers on the box
CrossSSX: And I went to great extents to make sure of that. If I did not care I would not have used all that packaging on everything. I have never had a problem with a laptop arriving, this is my first desktop but the system was very very well packaged with just about everything I could fit in the box
CrossSSX: From foam to pop corn, to bubble wrap and news paper.
DigitlHail: the system is 30lbs, you it touching the wall at 2 points, if it was dropped on any of those points, it would've broken immediately because of the intertia and lack of protective material
DigitlHail: i ship computers and parts for a living, i make sure everything is packed so it can move around, the more stiff something is packaged, the more it'll be likely to break, you have to have at least 3 inches on each side to allow the contents to shift to hard impact
CrossSSX: Even in a bigger nox the unit was so front heavy it would have done either, its plastic and glass. I am sorry I did not have a bigger box I am sure that was not the cause of this problem was because the box was that close.
DigitlHail: if it's front heavy, you put the unit monitor side down
DigitlHail: fact is that I want to return this for a refund
CrossSSX: Well I ship laptops constantly and sell them locally for a living as well and i have never had a problem
DigitlHail: if you want, i can take pictures and put them on the hardforums and let the members decide whos at fault
CrossSSX: it still would have been a point of impact. I laid it out so the iMac if the box fell would not shift onto the iBook
CrossSSX: I believe you and I was going to ask for a mod to help out if this became unruley if you would like yes we can grab one and go with that.

[Cross]

Here is the rest of the chat dialog:
DigitlHail: awesome, i'll take some pictures here soon
CrossSSX: ok I have just opened a thread on the tip's/troll's section
DigitlHail: whats your hardforum user name
CrossSSX: Cross
DigitlHail: i dont see it
CrossSSX: I am still writing hold on I will submit it then edit the rest in
CrossSSX: Its there now
DigitlHail: alright i replied
DigitlHail: I'll go ahead and put up pictures
CrossSSX: ok
CrossSSX: still posting the front runner there so I will catch up when its done

[ChrisOh]

http://www.hailmicro.com/mac/DSC00734.JPG
http://www.hailmicro.com/mac/DSC00735.JPG
http://www.hailmicro.com/mac/DSC00736.JPG
http://www.hailmicro.com/mac/DSC00737.JPG
http://www.hailmicro.com/mac/DSC00738.JPG
http://www.hailmicro.com/mac/DSC00739.JPG
http://www.hailmicro.com/mac/DSC00740.JPG
Relative size of imac to the box

http://www.hailmicro.com/mac/DSC00741.JPG
http://www.hailmicro.com/mac/DSC00742.JPG
http://www.hailmicro.com/mac/DSC00743.JPG

[OCTech]

Should have paid somebody to pack that for you professionally.

Ladies and Gentleman, this is what you get for packing your stuff improperly.

[OCTech]

BTW,

This doesn't even need to be here. Sort this out on your own, it's not like somebody suddenly dissapeared. Handle it like men!

[Cross]

We are trying to get outside help hints the reason for it. I am very surprised at the pictures of the box, quite frankly I am pissed off! That box was new except for the silverware marking on top from where I got it. I am very sorry to see things arrived in such condition. I of course have no pictures to show the original condition. I have never done that. I wish I had just to show you that I do not ship items without proper packaging and flat out it looks like USPS didn't give a crap about the package. I am not sure what to think about it. How do we go about filing a complant with USPS?

[Cross]

This is my current converstation I guess oh, chris is not answering. Quite frankly I had a few questions he is showing the packaging at the bottom of the box,
1) is that supposed to indicate something?
2) I see the foam, bubble wrap and other packaging materials. The bubble wrap came form the same roll I used to send diagram his laptop right now that we traded. He should have it any time now I am sure he can vouch for the way I ship amoung others who have gotten laptops.

Again the box was new, the foam was used on the iMac and the iBook was wrapped in bubble wrap. I used all the packaging I could in that box, and quite frankly I am very mad to see it arrive that way but I sent it out in condition that I used it from, (good condition new box, great iBook) I used them all and kept them for myself. I take care of my computers laptops spec. and while I hate to see that this happened I know thats not how I sent them out and I think the post office should be responsible. I want to help in any way that I can but thats really how I feel because I have witnesses to how I packed it and I know that those items did not go out like that and all the gentleman who got something from me from that thread got there items in the condition I sent them out in.

(Currently on going again he returned so I will update this)
DigitlHail: hey just wondering how we should arrange the return
CrossSSX: talking to others right now, trying to figure out what to do, i just posted a reply. Quite frankly I havfe no clue what to do that is most def. not how I sent it... I feel really back but that it now how it was when it went out the box was basically new, the systems were being used.. AARRRGGHHH
DigitlHail: yeah, the post office can do quite a number
DigitlHail: basically the rule of thumb is to pack your stuff good enough so it can survive a 5ft drop onto concrete at least 3 times while being delivered
CrossSSX: I have a new power adaptor for the iBook I have a few lying around, I can send you that. I could make out the screen shifting, god damit I want to kill someone right now. I sold all that stuff because I needed rent and now this, I have the ram door thats my fault I took it off when I put in the 10 gig.
DigitlHail: anything you can do with the post office?
CrossSSX: I have no clue I have never had a shipping problem before. Granted I am normally selling laptops, but I have never had this happen and have no clue what to do.
CrossSSX: I think it would have had to be filed right on the spot if it can be (the whole you took it home and broke it thing, I can see that coming) I am trying to find out now
CrossSSX: Damit it looks like they drop kicked the box... like and ace ventura nightmare
DigitlHail: yeah man
CrossSSX: look I do not do people like this and I want to help but this is not how I sent it and I flat out do not have the money to send it back, I was really counting on having what you were going to send me for rent. I am trying to figure out what to do. ggrr I am completely lost here, damit!
CrossSSX: Thats why i was asking for help hoping someone would know who to get the items taken care of with the post office, thats just not the way they went out theres no way they can say thats how they got it I have to many people that know its not but then I really don't know what it will do even if I prove it
CrossSSX: hey, swheres the keyboard? It should be damaged to if the iMac got that much damage and they beat the package up that much
DigitlHail: keyboard's just missing a key
DigitlHail: on the far right
DigitlHail: prolly power
CrossSSX: which keyboard? Desktop or iBook the iBook was missing the esc key as I indicated to you
DigitlHail is idle at 5:35:02 PM.


AFter thinking about this it has to be the keyboard for the desktop and that was a keyboard I had just bought. The system was without keyboard and I was working a trade with a Hard user for one, I will have to chekc my records of who that was not sure it was oh, chris think it was another user.

[CrimandEvil]

Wasn't there something awhile back about USPS repacking packages?

[ChrisOh]

The box and packaging was original, the tape wasnt removed either so i dont think it was repacked.

Basically, were asking the community and mods to determine what should we do at this point.

[primea]

I do hope you guys insured this ... ??

[CrimandEvil]

I do hope you guys insured this ... ??
They didn't but maybe next time they will.

[primea]

They didn't but maybe next time they will.



:eek: if it worth paying the packaging and shipping, it's worth insuring!! I guess lessons learned ...

I hope you guys work out a decent settlement ... it's not really anyone's fault ... you can stick that thing in a vault, and still get messed up ... there's just too many things that can happen if you let other people handle your stuff ... :(

[ufokillerz]

if the seller hinted on insurance and offered it, and if insured, it is up to usps.

if seller never hinted on insurance or offered it, seller should pay for it.

if seller offered insurance and buyer said no, then buyer should pay for it.

usps packing guidelines, if it doesnt make noise of move around when they shake it, its eligible for insurance.

[jmattick]

if the seller hinted on insurance and offered it, and if insured, it is up to usps.

if seller never hinted on insurance or offered it, seller should pay for it.

if seller offered insurance and buyer said no, then buyer should pay for it.

usps packing guidelines, if it doesnt make noise of move around when they shake it, its eligible for insurance.

About those USPS packing guidelines. Are they strict on that? Because I recently sent a package that had an AC adapter in a seperate box inside that box and it rattled inside the seperate box, but they still insured it.

Anyway, about the problem at hand. I am just going to give my input. I recently sent my Axim that I have had for sale to a person from another board, that had exceptional heat, and when he recieved it, he said that there was food around the keys and the screen flickered. I knew that wasn't possible, so I had him send it back. When I got it back, no problems with the screen or anything around the keys. I figured he just didn't have the money at that time, so he claimed something was the matter just to send it back.

I don't know if this is an occurance of something like that happening here. I am just saying, it is a possibility...

[ChrisOh]

Nope, no insurance, never offered. Also, i talked to the USPS that they said that if you dont have at least 2-3 inches of packing on all sides on a computer, they'll deny the claim. Ive been trading for 5 years and have 70+ heat and i am always under the impression that it is the seller's responsibility to get the item to the buyer in the condition as described.

[ChrisOh]

jmattick: are you implying that I broke the computer just so I could return it because i had buyer's remorse? Check my feedback, i dont have buyer's remorse or a return and this was an absolutely fantastic deal, i would've loved to have what I ordered because of the price.

[Cross]

As a seller quite often I am always used to not insuring things unless asked. Same policy for eBay even, in my sellings as well as my purchases. If a person has that much heat and feedback (And even with eBay and Heatware together he has more) you would know about insurance. Its not like he was a rookie buyer who would not have known. Even I would not dare to imply that at my level. While I sell mainly laptops (although awaiting response's from diagram when he gets the laptop and ethan a new user who I traded with who runs the Anime Networks forum I believe it is but has not responded, he got my AMD Athlon 64 eMachines 6805 Laptop.)

I also want to make this very clear:
I have no doubts that Oh, Chris is telling me the truth and the he does not have buyers remorse. I also have no doubts about how I shipped it, so again we are back were we started. While we have a difference of opinion on insurance I don't feel you have to ask someone who has done over 50 transactions if they want it, they will indicate if they do just as with eBay. Just as I myself expect.

[jmattick]

jmattick: are you implying that I broke the computer just so I could return it because i had buyer's remorse? Check my feedback, i dont have buyer's remorse or a return and this was an absolutely fantastic deal, i would've loved to have what I ordered because of the price.

Oh no... not at all. Doon't mistake me when I say that it is a possiblity. Just throwing something in there. Not at all accusing you. I am in no way implying or anything like it.

[primea]

The insurance is really for the time that the package travels ... that is the time when uncontrolled things happen ... you always assume that the seller/buyer are acting in good faith and can be trusted. Insurance is additional peace of mind that your package will get to where it should be in the condition it meant to get there ...

and ufokillerz makes a good point ... but I assume that if USPS, or any other carrier accepts to ship your package, bills you for it, and insured it for you ... it is their fault ... they also have insurance for this king of thing ...

[Mark099]

Nope, no insurance, never offered. Also, i talked to the USPS that they said that if you dont have at least 2-3 inches of packing on all sides on a computer, they'll deny the claim. Ive been trading for 5 years and have 70+ heat and i am always under the impression that it is the seller's responsibility to get the item to the buyer in the condition as described.

I agree with that...

As a seller, I insure anything over $100 being shipped. Anything less than that I figure I could afford to take the loss. Keep in mind, just because an item is not insured that doesn't mean you don't have a legitimate claim with the USPS. You would, however, have to prove that they were somehow negligent in their handling of the shipped items.

[Ruckus]

As a seller quite often I am always used to not insuring things unless asked. Same policy for eBay even, in my sellings as well as my purchases. If a person has that much heat and feedback (And even with eBay and Heatware together he has more) you would know about insurance. Its not like he was a rookie buyer who would not have known. Even I would not dare to imply that at my level. While I sell mainly laptops (although awaiting response's from diagram when he gets the laptop and ethan a new user who I traded with who runs the Anime Networks forum I believe it is but has not responded, he got my AMD Athlon 64 eMachines 6805 Laptop.)

I also want to make this very clear:
I have no doubts that Oh, Chris is telling me the truth and the he does not have buyers remorse. I also have no doubts about how I shipped it, so again we are back were we started. While we have a difference of opinion on insurance I don't feel you have to ask someone who has done over 50 transactions if they want it, they will indicate if they do just as with eBay. Just as I myself expect.'

I beg to differ on ebay you give the option of insurance (it is an optional or mandatory option but never the less an option that is listed) if you dont give the option then you are responsible as per ebay.

[Cross]

The matter was solved already, thanks so much and thanks for the info. My current buyers have followed the same process as mentioned before your post and I did as well with my last laptop purchase that I also just sold on eBay and again it was sent as his option in they payment request. Thanks again