*** SFF FAQ ***

[FLECOM]

this is the SFF faq

-end

;)

working on it- if you have any suggestions please drop me a pm, thx

[Falls Included]

lol, capitalize the FAQ part of it, it looks like "Sff Fag"... :p

[MaddJoser]

I agree with ^ when I first glanced I was like wtf, then I saw the other topics and said ok.

[firtol88]

Another Vote For The Use Of Capital Letters!!!!



Also make a section on Mini-ITX

[bleed3r]

Take a glance and see if you can guess which is which :D










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SFF faq SFF fag

hehe. well on topic here, make sure you get some info about the SN45G and v2 SN41G2 etc vdimm causing death problems.

and another common thing I can think of but you probly have, is "will X work with X psu?"

[Julian]

Are there any watercooled SFF's out?

[Frustration]

^ Probably not...

[Julian]

Dang, I wanted to be uber-elite :(

[the@ntipop]

There are no SFF's that come water cooled, but there are a couple water cooling kits. I'm big at the SFFTech forums so I'll try and help port over some of the FAQs and going ons from there to here. At work now, but maybe over the next few nights.

I second a distinction between mini-ITX and flex-ATX type boards. They each have much different issues to be discussed.

[Leathco]

Perhaps a list of what motherboard/case combos to stay away from and what ones are awesome? I prefer F.I.C. by far...

[BlasterJaack]

Q: Will the nvidia 6800 gt fit in a sff computer and will it have enough power to run it?

[Subliminal]

Perhaps a list of the best fans to use when modding the case for either:

A. Volume
B. Additional cooling

As well as some vendors where adapters can be purchased.

[the@ntipop]

Q: Will the nvidia 6800 gt fit in a sff computer and will it have enough power to run it?

Yes. Check out this thread about one in an SB75G2 atSFFTech. (http://forums.sudhian.com/messageview.cfm?catid=43&threadid=60508)

[i3lacKnyte]

Yes. Check out this thread about one in an SB75G2 atSFFTech. (http://forums.sudhian.com/messageview.cfm?catid=43&threadid=60508)

the guy in that thread is not using the stock psu. it might work stock, but i would toss this puppy (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=17-157-005&depa=0) in there to be safe.

[the@ntipop]

That is indeed the stock PSU. He has a v2 which comes with the 250W PSU. All Shuttles now come with that or the 240W SilentX.

[i3lacKnyte]

That is indeed the stock PSU. He has a v2 which comes with the 250W PSU. All Shuttles now come with that or the 240W SilentX.

sorry i didnt know that. ahh well if anything people now know they can replace their sff psu's if need be :)

[cepiatone]

could i run this system on a
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=56-101-428&depa=0



AMD Xp 2700
512mb of Ram
120gb Maxtor HDD
Msi Nvidia 5950ultra

and would I run just as fast as my system with a MSI ktv4 mother board with 560 watt psu?

Im new to small from factor cases, shuttles, and I wanted to do some research before transfering to one.

[jameshead]

Q: Are there any Mini-ITX boards out there that have pcmcia slots?

[firtol88]

http://www.logicsupply.com/product_info.php/cPath/21/products_id/209 the MII series and this TC series http://www.logicsupply.com/product_info.php/cPath/21/products_id/212 there are probably others.

This is my favorite though http://www.commell.com.tw/Product/SBC/LV-671.HTM :D

[MrWoot]

is anyone working on this? it'd be real nice to get some answers to my questoin about SFF.

1. Where can i purchase motherboards for this (and will normal processors work?)
2. What are pros/cons of a SFF compared to a normal desktop?

[killzone]

Q. Will the dangerden nv-6800 water block allow enough room in the back for a sound card audigy2 zs?? or does it take up the hole pci slot. just worried about the backing plate for the block

[FallenBuddhist]

Q. Will my Kingston 512MB PC2100 RAM work with the shuttle SN41G2V2?

I was looking up the RAM compatability on shuttle's website for this particular motherboard, and it doesn't have this specific RAM listed. Does that mean it won't work at all?.



I just purchased a shuttle SN41G2V2 ($199 from NewEgg).

http://us.shuttle.com/Halloween.asp
for other shuttles if you're interested. AWESOME prices.

[leeroy]

Q. Will my Kingston 512MB PC2100 RAM work with the shuttle SN41G2V2?

I was looking up the RAM compatability on shuttle's website for this particular motherboard, and it doesn't have this specific RAM listed. Does that mean it won't work at all?.



I just purchased a shuttle SN41G2V2 ($199 from NewEgg).

http://us.shuttle.com/Halloween.asp
for other shuttles if you're interested. AWESOME prices.

kingston is quality ram, it shld work

wow 199 usd, is that 106gbp? thats a really good buy!

[sleepeeg3]

Q: Will this FAQ ever be posted or did it go the way of the 6800 Ultra Extreme? ;)

[Hate_Bot]

Q: Will this FAQ ever be posted or did it go the way of the 6800 Ultra Extreme? ;)

Second

[laserdemon]

Q. Will my Kingston 512MB PC2100 RAM work with the shuttle SN41G2V2?

I was looking up the RAM compatability on shuttle's website for this particular motherboard, and it doesn't have this specific RAM listed. Does that mean it won't work at all?.



I just purchased a shuttle SN41G2V2 ($199 from NewEgg).

http://us.shuttle.com/Halloween.asp
for other shuttles if you're interested. AWESOME prices.

I just built the same system, yes kingsont value ram 512 pc2100 does work with the sn41g2v2. I built this system last night.

[xSnowmaNx]

Q: I currently have a P4 2.8c processor in my mid tower case with a P4P800SE (I believe its the 865PE chipset) and 1 gig of DDR PC-3200 (512x2), X800 XT PE, and an Audigy 2 ZS Platinum. Will I be able to transfer my pc components into a Shuttle SB65G2? I realize that my ZS Platinum internal I/O cannot be used in the case if I plan on using a CD/DVD rom (which I do)

[Vertigo Acid]

Q. Will the dangerden nv-6800 water block allow enough room in the back for a sound card audigy2 zs?? or does it take up the hole pci slot. just worried about the backing plate for the blockNo, it will take up the PCI slot

[Qtip42]

Q: The Flex-ATX form factor is used on SFF cases, it is not always 9.5"x7.5" like the flex-atx spec says. Some are around 12"x7.5". Does anyone have documentation on this larger flex board?

[firtol88]

LMAO this was linked on the [H] front page. :rolleyes: guess they didn't look at it first. :p

[Tk-421-=<CFF>=-]

I own 2 Shuttle SFF's & I LOVE them. I have bult 7 more for friends/family co-workers after they saw mine. All of mine have been from Shutle, so I can't speak intelligently about other SFF manufacturers. Some words of advice for those of you wishing to dive into the SFF world.

your system will run hotter by about 10 deg. C. Get used to it. Or take the case off & put a desk fan in front of it. :p There's constant flame wars about over/underclocking everything from fans to making them "quiet" to achieve goals that are polar opposites. My take on SFF in general is that you should not overclock your system. They PSU's from Shuttle (with the exception of the sn41 series pre-ACHME) have been VERY high quality. I have yet to have a system fail (though, to be fair it's only been 2 1/2 years) My current system (about to be upgraded for BF2) is a SN41G2 v2 (AMD 2500 barton core) w/ a Radeon 9700 Pro. amd 2x512MB Corsair XMS low latency sticks. I also have 2 WD1200GB internally installed along with a Lite-On burner. I did not experience any of the issues some did regarding the initial power draw from the devoces on bootup causing it to crash...but I thought it fair to bring it up. This issue has been resolved though.

My temps on full load run around 48 cpu, 42 case, 39 hdd1 (can't read smart temp reading from 1st drive for some reason). I'd imagine it's hotter by maybe 5 C. At idle, drop all temps about 5-7 C.

The ICE cooler really is a great idea & there are several tweaks to make it better like snipping the grill off the back.

Also, be sure you buy quality RAM. I can not stress this enough. I remember reading many a thread on SFFTech about how someone had bought brand-X ram b/c it was the cheapest & they would have random problems. Don't get cheap here, buy something decent.

I'm looking at getting another Shuttle (nforce4) & have begun researching again for my
purchase. I'll keep this forum updated as my research progresses.

Now to answer some questions I've seen posted here nobody has answered....

Fitting the 6800 GT in a shuttle: I don't recall seeing any threads on sfftech.com about not being able to squeeze one in. Again, this will depend on your model. I know that one some models they reveresed the AGP/PCI slots to allow dual slot video cards. My 9700 Pro fit, but I was pretty scared it wouldn't.

PROS:

It's small! Think the size of a toaster.
You can use off the shelf parts for your memory, cpu, drives, etc.
Good engineering. A lot more thought goes into the deisgn/ease/layout of these things than I think people give them credit for.
Shuttle specific: They listen to your ideas (or used to at least). For 2 months we bitched about haiving the SPDIF in the front. The next model both were moved to the rear.
Quiet. This is subjective, but my system before this had 5 fans, and with all the drives in there it sounded like a jet engine when I turned it off
Easier to set up than most mid towers. A good SFF will come with the cables pre-routed & the connections like front port usb already set up.


CONS:

It's SMALL!! You've got 1 AGP slot & 1 PCI slot. Some have 2 PCIe slots. Depending on which model you're looking at, you may be limited on your video card selection.
It's noisy. I put this in both columns because if I don't everyone will bitch one way or the other. I think they're quieter than what it used to be. I can keep this in the living room
Limited upgradability.
Pricey. Let's face the facts here. SFF's are hot & subsequently in high demand & short supply. What's that mean? You're going to pay more for that little box.
The optional mesh case cover actually increased my temps.
Runs hotter. This means you should back up your data more frequently & expect a shorter lifespan. I have no proof of this to offer other than common sense that if you're running 2 machines & the first one is 10 - 15 C cooler, it should last longer.


I have only seen *1* water-cooled SFF & it was done just because everyone said it couldn't be done. Again, I must stress what your goals are in your machine.

For me, it came down to looking at how I actually use my computer before I decided to jump in. I normally don't buy upgrade cards, I usually keep the same video card throughout the life of the machine, I usually use the machine for about 2 years before upgrading.

[Giggles of Doom]

For those of you looking to get a SFF box, but don't know which one has all the features you need, I built a nice comparison grid page, generously hosted at SFF Tech (http://matrix.sfftech.com). You can sort by pretty much anything (CPU, FSB speeds, etc) and limit your search to, say, only boxes that have SATA Raid. It is very detailed, including dimensions, dbA readings for many units, chipset information, even what LAN chip they use and if they have S/PDIF out.

[Iargonaut]

For those of you looking to get a SFF box, but don't know which one has all the features you need, I built a nice comparison grid page, generously hosted at SFF Tech (http://matrix.sfftech.com). You can sort by pretty much anything (CPU, FSB speeds, etc) and limit your search to, say, only boxes that have SATA Raid. It is very detailed, including dimensions, dbA readings for many units, chipset information, even what LAN chip they use and if they have S/PDIF out.

Which has been down since at least a week!

[Giggles of Doom]

Yes. I am thinking of moving it, as these week long outages seem to be becoming fairly frequent

[chrisf6969]

A MUST DO FOR PRETTY MUCH ALL SHUTTLES IS THE FAN GRILL REMOVAL.

See below:
http://www.crowdcontrolusa.com/overclock/backshot.jpg

The newest models have a little better grill (less restrictive) but its still best to just cut it off.

I also added an intake hole for my GF6800nu.

With these 2 mods. I greatly reduced the temps on my videocard and CPU. Videocard runs almost 10C cooler, after mod. And now the main fan hardly ever speeds up. (Smart Fan - variable speed - setting in BIOS)

Worklog here (http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=855304)
Finished product here (http://www.crowdcontrolusa.com/overclock/mirage.html)

[Grimmda]

For those of you looking to get a SFF box, but don't know which one has all the features you need, I built a nice comparison grid page, generously hosted at SFF Tech (http://matrix.sfftech.com). You can sort by pretty much anything (CPU, FSB speeds, etc) and limit your search to, say, only boxes that have SATA Raid. It is very detailed, including dimensions, dbA readings for many units, chipset information, even what LAN chip they use and if they have S/PDIF out.

SO where is this Document now? The site/link is still down.

[Slider19]

Q. What advantages do SFF offer over mid-towers etc?

Q. Are SFF computers more expensive than regular towers and if so, by how much?

Q. What do people use their SFF PC's for most?

[Nakamori]

Q. What advantages do SFF offer over mid-towers etc?

Q. Are SFF computers more expensive than regular towers and if so, by how much?

Q. What do people use their SFF PC's for most?

A. Portability, looks, no loss in features (save SLI and dual cpu)
A. yes, they are. The mATX SFF's will run you 150-175$ when the mobo is added, and shuttle systems can be even more than that.
A. Gaming/LAN rigs, HTPC, computers for the dorm (i.e. me), but many people use them as primary rigs these days

[bob]

Well, id like to see a "Will a _ work in my _" Fill in the blanks with video cards, heatsinks...

I hate noise. Sometimes I want to go shoot my brothers computer that has the stock A64 cooler on it. It screams at me all night. Just the whining of a high revving fan sucking air.

[jeece]

I can say from experience that:
1- A MicroCool Northpole (chipset cooler) fits in an SB75G2 ; ~½ inch clearance on top of fan. Gotta use custom retention system for Intel chipset, I used a clip from a Swiftech MCX159. Fan is way louder than stock though, but chipset is no longer hotter than my CPU. :D

2- The Swiftech MCX159 is way too tall (in stock and unmodded form, that is ;) )

[Tk-421-=<CFF>=-]

UPDATE:

If you have an older shuttle & your temps are idling >36, upgrade your BIOS & enable the C1 Disconnect. It will drop your idle temp about 7-10 deg.

[MassiveOverkill]

Since they won't sticky it, I'll post it here: http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=924745

[Yanks2435]

I'm seriously considering building a SFF with the Qpack case, but I have a few questions though. I noticed from pics that alot of people are using standard power supplies in theirs because the stock one sucks, is there a list of which ones fit? Also, which HSF's are people using for their LGA 775 Procs? It looks like the Thermaltake Golden Orb 2 will fit. Just a cheap system to hold MP3's/Movies and something to lug to lan parties for some CS, nothing too hard core.

I plan on doing :
Qpack case
Celeron D 2.93 ghz ( On Sale at Tiger for $39.99)
2 or 3gb of DDR2 RAM
Gigabyte GA-8I945GMF mATX mobo ( http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813128303 )
GeForce 6600
and 1 or 2 200gig SATA drives.

[emptyshell]

You should pick a PSU which is no longer then 150mm at the very most, and a optical drive that is 180mm at the very most. The Liberty is a good PSU, it is 140mm, and most lite-on drives are 170mm, this would give you 40mm to work with, which is quite good in this case.

[PCduster]

Are there any watercooled SFF's out?

--> clicky <-- (http://www.voyeurmods.com/index.php?action=item&id=1600&prevaction=category&previd=2&prevstart=0)

The Qpack.. I have a Qpack myself, and watercooled it..

[Steeeeve]

Here is a short list of common questions. If you have anything specific just PM a SFF Club officer.

Will this PSU Fit? and Other Related PSU Questions
Yes it will. If it is one of the "longer" ones then probably not (under 6"). However!! You must use a smaller opitical drive such as a lite-on or plextor for it to work. Either that or you can buy shorter connectors as shown here: http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=924745

Keep in mind that the Qpack is smaller so perhaps a 5.5" PSU is better than the 6" PSU.

The stock PSU is garbage so don't use it. Read this review (http://www.jonnyguru.com/PSU/AspireXQpack/420W.html) from JonnyGuru.

Will this video card fit?
Any video card that doesn't extend beyond the top of the card should fit. Some get very close though.
You can also watercool the VGA although it makes it tricky.

Will this CPU Cooler Fit?
Maybe, Obviously the stock coolers will fit, many ZALMANs fit (which are probably the most popular). Pretty much 3-3.5" is the safe mark. If it is taller than that, then you might want to ask first.

CoolMaster Hyper L3
Swiftech MCX series
Zalman FS-C77 Fatal1ty (among other Zalmans)
ALL STOCK HEATSINKS

You can also cut that middle brace if you want too! Although this will make your case much weaker

Example of ZALMAN CNPS7700ALCU Cooler (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/phillyp1982/X-Qpack/DSC00108.jpg)

Will this GPU Cooler Fit?
Probably, unless it extends above the card. The clearance between the video card and bottom of the PSU is less than 10mm (probably more like 5).

Here is a picture of an Artic NV Silencer (I believe) in a Qpack
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/dworley/DSC00078.jpg

Can you watercool a qpack?
Yes, Click Here (http://www.voyeurmods.com/index.php?action=item&id=1600&prevaction=category&previd=2&prevstart=0) or check out the SFF gallery forums. (VGA watercooling available too)

What is the best motherboard?...all other mobo related questions
See motherboard thread...they are all mostly fine....go with the newer ones though.
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=900405

Optical Drive Questions
Like I said earlier, if you get a normal PSU then you will most likely have to use a shorter optical drive such as the Lite-on or Plextor models. You might be able to use the longer ones with the modified connectors as linked here (http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=924745)

In general...stick with something below 180mm.

memorex dvd burn 198mm
nec dvd burn 189mm
benq cdburn 179mm
samsung dvd burner 170mm
liteon dvd burner 170mm
aopen dvd burn 190
lg dvd burnter 170
and sony dvd burner 165mm

!!!CAUTION!!! The ones that barely fit might not fit with certain PSUs. I suggest you don't risk it.

update: The MicroFly and similiar are longer cases and therefore might be able to take longer Optical Drives. I suggest you still get the shorter ones but perhaps 190mm is ok now. Keep in mind that with a 6" PSU this changes

Are There Any Carrying Bags for the Qpack/etc?
Well, kind of. There is no bag made just for the qpack but many people have found some that work.
See this thread for some information on what some people have done:
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=968279

The Sugo Pack from Silverstone will fit all SFF cases I have tested to date

More questions as I think of them...

[Steeeeve]

This is just going to be a list of current and upcoming SFF Cases...I will update it as needed
Note: this doesn't include barebones like the shuttle...only mATX "box" cases.


Current Cases:

Apevia X-Qpack (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811144109)
Antec Aria (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811129146)
SilverStone SST-SG01 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811163050)
Aopen G352 (http://global.aopen.com.tw/products/housing/G325.htm)
AeroCool CoolBox (http://www.pcinpact.com/images/bd/news/25484.jpg)
Qmicra (http://www.pcdesignlab.com/Qmicra.htm)
Lian Li mATX case (http://www.lian-li.com/Product/Chassis/Mini_PC-V300.htm)
Ultra Micro Fly (http://www.sffclub.com/Micro_Fly_Cases-1.pdf)
Antec NSK1300 (http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=91300)


Coming Soon:

Apevia mATX case - Unknown details
Silverstone SG02 - October/November

[svet-am]

i'd like to see a listing of the various SFF chassis (like the X-QPACK, Aria, etc) that has their physical dimensions such as clearance from CPU to the structural bar or how far back a PCI/AGP card can go before interfering with the 5.25" bay. Things like that make my planning a build much easier.

[Steeeeve]

i'd like to see a listing of the various SFF chassis (like the X-QPACK, Aria, etc) that has their physical dimensions such as clearance from CPU to the structural bar or how far back a PCI/AGP card can go before interfering with the 5.25" bay. Things like that make my planning a build much easier.

That sounds like a good idea to me. If you don't mind, post this in the SFF Club forum as an idea.

I can do it for the Qpack but someone else has to do it for everything else.

[Zap [PCGO]]

2.5 Questions:

1) Will the Opteron 146 OEM I buy from here include stock cooling? I'm confused if OEM processors include fan and heatsink. http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=120331

2) Will this motherboard: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16813138264 be able to support this ram: http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?

Is that ram a better thoice than this ram: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820145505

Thanks.

[Steeeeve]

OEM does not come with the heatsink.

As for the RAM...first link doesn't work..second link doesn't have that great of RAM. Depends on what you need it for.

Any PC3200 (DDR 400) RAM will work with that board

[Zap [PCGO]]

Oh sorry, I meant to post a link to the 1GB Patriot DDR2 ram (http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=141453&AFFIL=hhd&NR=1) Taken from the sticky in Hotdeals forum.

I have heard of good things about Corsair and not so much about Patriot. However, I have heard that DDR2 runs cooler than the old DDR. Just a question of which is better in this case I think.

[Steeeeve]

AMD doesn't support DDR2 yet

[brandinb]

i looked on the net and seen one report of the memorex dvd burner at 7.8 inches long or 198 mm which is way too long for xqpack. can anybody confirm? does anybody have this dvdrom?

upon further investigation through google

memorex dvd burn 198mm
nec dvd burn 189mm
benq cdburn 179mm
samsung dvd burner 170mm
liteon dvd burner 170mm
aopen dvd burn 190
lg dvd burnter 170
and sony dvd burner 165mm so it looks like a winner
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=172472
now does anybody know of a problem with a sony dvd burner drive?? incompatable with any games or any troubles with one?

[Steeeeve]

i looked on the net and seen one report of the memorex dvd burner at 7.8 inches long or 198 mm which is way too long for xqpack. can anybody confirm? does anybody have this dvdrom?

upon further investigation through google

memorex dvd burn 198mm
nec dvd burn 189mm
benq cdburn 179mm
samsung dvd burner 170mm
liteon dvd burner 170mm
aopen dvd burn 190
lg dvd burnter 170
and sony dvd burner 165mm so it looks like a winner
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=172472
now does anybody know of a problem with a sony dvd burner drive?? incompatable with any games or any troubles with one?

Honestly, I saw somewhere that said "150mm" which is probably impossible considering a CD is around 120mm. I always thought memorex was on the long side of things too.

[Steeeeve]

updated the FAQ a little...see above about 9 posts

[rachel1234]

I am looking to buy a SFF system. I was told that the Monarch horent pro is the best one out there ?

feedback please ?

www.monarchcomputer.com hive core duo $999.00

I also like the frag box. but the review on here does not look good.

Also. who makes the best boards ?