Mechanical Keyboard Guide

[WorldExclusive]

I found this Mechanical Keyboard Guide @ Overclock.net when researching a few boards out there. I thought it was very useful in educating me on the different types of switches for mechanical keyboards. They also provide overviews and links to the manufactures to purchase each board. I think this will put to rest the debate between mechanical and dome/scissor switch keyboards for typing, gaming or both.

http://www.overclock.net/computer-peripherals/491752-mechanical-keyboard-guide.html

http://geekhack.org/

[AVT]

Honestly, I wish there was some sort of hybrid between mechanical/scissor that had all of the benefits of mechanical but the key design and smaller travel distance (2mm vs 3.5mm) of scissor keys.

But there isn't.

[WorldExclusive]

Makes sense but there would be no room for the springs. Scissors remove the springs.

I would be a great invention though, get to it! lol

[crazjayz]

Honestly, I wish there was some sort of hybrid between mechanical/scissor that had all of the benefits of mechanical but the key design and smaller travel distance (2mm vs 3.5mm) of scissor keys.

But there isn't.

3 words. hydraulic actuated keys.

Makes sense but there would be no room for the springs. Scissors remove the springs.

I would be a great invention though, get to it! lol

Oh yeah, needs to be invented first.

[sayu]

I'm not a fan of short throw switches, but non-membrane short throw switches do exist. Topre makes short throw capacitive switches, but they are hard to find and only available in Japanese layouts and there is also the Cherry ML switches which are only available in a few models (ML-4100, Optimus Maximus, and a few others).

[Vittra]

I'd love to try a Topre. At twice the price of a Filco though, I just can't justify it. :(

That is a great source of info WorldExclusive, thanks. When I was looking into Mechanical Keyboards I found a ton of info over at http://geekhack.org/ as well.

[WorldExclusive]

Torpe is to rich for my blood. http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,realforce

I just received an email from Filco about their 87-key blue switch keyboard. Pre-orders should be starting soon. I'm trying to decided between blues and browns. Blacks are to stiff even though they are the best for gaming. Brown switches seems like the best balance between the three. GeekHack is an awesome source also. They actually take the keyboards apart.

No problem for providing the info. This is the Hardforum so we should be using the best of the best.

[skriefal]

Honestly, I wish there was some sort of hybrid between mechanical/scissor that had all of the benefits of mechanical but the key design and smaller travel distance (2mm vs 3.5mm) of scissor keys.

But there isn't.

Sounds like you're looking for a Cherry G84-series keyboard. Here's one example:

http://cgi.ebay.com/CHERRY-G84-4400PRBUS-Black-COMPACT-KEYBOARD_W0QQitemZ320360414947QQcmdZViewItem?rvr_id=&itemid=320360414947

They use mechanical keyswitches but with the shorter key throw that is commonly found in laptop keyboards. I personally hate short-throw keys, but if you like them... then this is probably your only option without scissor switches.

(Edit: I see that Sayu already referred to these above, with his reference to the "ML-4100" (aka G84-4100)).

[firas]

happy hacking keyboards are not mechanical! :eek:

[WorldExclusive]

The Happy Hacking Professional Keyboard uses the same switches as the Torpe.

The HHK Lite use membranes. I wouldn't call them mechanical either, but the Torpe switches seems like the ultimate layout for typing.

[xnorthx]

I've recently been in touch with [H] member watanabe getting some info about his "Filco Majestic bluetooth brown cherry kb".

sadly, i don't think the bluetooth model is in production anymore. I'd love a reliable wireless mechanical switch keyboard :cool:

[JaYp146]

I'd love a mechanical keyboard that's relatively quiet.

The only reasons I'm not using a vintage 1993 IBM Model M right now are that it's too damned loud for my housemates and lacks media buttons ..

[WorldExclusive]

I think the brown and black switches are the quiet ones. The blues and whites are very loud.

[Injection of <3]

Indeed the only sound that the blacks/browns make are from bottoming out when you hit the key too hard. The blues/clears have an artificial click mechanism built in to notify you when you've actuated the switch.

If you want to try out a mechanical board w/o spending a lot, you can pick up an at-101w on ebay for about $10-15. It comes with black alps switches which are somewhat similar to the cherry browns.

[WorldExclusive]

It's interesting that the older stuff is still the best.

[sayu]

happy hacking keyboards are not mechanical! :eek:

Thats a gray area on whether Topre switches are considered mechanical or not since they are actually capacitive. I generally consider anything that's not a rubber dome + membrane as mechanical, or as someone else put it, anything with springs = mechanical. Topre switches don't have membranes, but they do have rubber domes and springs. For that matter, Model M's are membrane boards and yet everyone has no problem calling them mechanical.

[Eva_Unit_0]

It's interesting that the older stuff is still the best.

So true. My first-gen Model M (manufactured 1984, no capslock/numlock/scroll lock lights) is amazing. If you guys have never tried a mechanical keyboard you should at least check them out. After using my Model M, membrane keyboards feel really mushy. The only other decent keyboards are keyboards on thinkpads :p

I've heard good things about das keyboard too, if you want newfangled things like usb and windows keys. But das keyboard isn't built around a steel frame so you can't use it to defend yourself during the zombie apocalypse like you can with the model M. :D

[thedintedcan]

I was a rogue and bought a filco ten-keyless in cherry browns for gaming. I have since had a chance to try cherry blacks and blues, and I feel I made a good choice. Its a good mix between stiff "kachuncks" with the blues, and there being no resistance at all with the blacks.

[Uberbob102000]

Ughh... thanks guys. Now I feel the need to buy a HHKP for my self in order to replace my G15. :p
This forum does suck sometimes, like when you want to not spend money.

@ thedintedcan: What are the blacks like? I'm not quite sure what they'd be like to type and game on.

[Injection of <3]

I was a rogue and bought a filco ten-keyless in cherry browns for gaming. I have since had a chance to try cherry blacks and blues, and I feel I made a good choice. Its a good mix between stiff "kachuncks" with the blues, and there being no resistance at all with the blacks.

Umm what? Blacks have the highest resistance of those (80g peak, 60 at actuation), with the blues in the middle (50g) and browns being the softest (44g). Unless you're talking about the tactile bump. But the tactile bump on the browns is so subtle (when compared to something like the buckling springs in model m's) it might as well not be there.

The blacks are best for gaming imo. They're fine for typing if you're prone to accidently hitting the wrong keys a lot since the high resistance will prevent a lot of those from registering if you notice it early enough. But the lack of any tactility means you'll probably be bottoming out a lot. For typing I would definitely recommend Topre boards or Model M's.

[WorldExclusive]

I'll be going with the browns also. A good balance between both.

[NukeULater]

I'm currently looking at a Filco Majestouch Tactile Click NKRO, or the new Das S keyboard. Both have blue MX cherry switches, but they both have their positives and negatives. The Das has media buttons which I use a lot and really miss since switching from my G15, but it seems to have some issues which are being sorted out as we speak. On the other hand, the Filco is just a good keyboard with sweet switches.

Anyone care to help me with this?

[NeoMatriX724]

I just picked up a Das Keyboard Pro for home and a Filco Tactile (nonclick) for work. The Cherry Blue switches definitely feel a bit more comfortable with the *Click* at the end. There might some mental attachment with it, but I do feel as though there is a bit more of a "tactile" feel with those.

The Cherry Brown's, however, are much nicer for a work environment. The force needed to trigger the keys is actually a fair amount less than the blue's and also much less noisy. I'm in love with both.

I really couldn't originally justify these keyboards before and thought they were just a novelty or "geek-cred" type thing. But after using htem for a few weeks. I find myself never going back. A few of my co-workers have taken the plunge too and picked up the Filco's.

[BETA.]

I am planning to try one of these Mechanical Keyboards for the first time. But, in my case only for gaming purposes and not typing. So I am looking at the Filco with the Cherry Black switches. I wanna see for myself if all this talk about mechanical keyboards are actually better for gaming, instead of a comfort thing.

[skriefal]

So true. My first-gen Model M (manufactured 1984, no capslock/numlock/scroll lock lights) is amazing.

The Model M did not enter manufacturing until late 1985, and pre-1986 models are rare. But many people see the 1984 copyright date and incorrectly assume that is the date when the keyboard was made. Check the label on the back of the keyboard. It should indicate the build date on a separate line...

[AVT]

Since I just received my M1 (figured it was good price/performance), I figured I'd give you guys this FYI: all of these keyboards are LOUD. Far, far louder than scissor-key keyboards.

They definitely feel nice to use. But the noise might be annoying enough to be a deal-breaker to some. I may decide to return mine because of it.

[Eva_Unit_0]

The Model M did not enter manufacturing until late 1985, and pre-1986 models are rare. But many people see the 1984 copyright date and incorrectly assume that is the date when the keyboard was made. Check the label on the back of the keyboard. It should indicate the build date on a separate line...

ah yes, you are right. October 24, 1986 here :cool:

[sayu]

Since I just received my M1 (figured it was good price/performance), I figured I'd give you guys this FYI: all of these keyboards are LOUD. Far, far louder than scissor-key keyboards.

They definitely feel nice to use. But the noise might be annoying enough to be a deal-breaker to some. I may decide to return mine because of it.

Just about all keyboards are louder than scissor. Cherry browns/blacks and Topres for example, will likely be quieter than your standard rubber dome board, so saying "all these keyboards are LOUD" is a bit misleading.

The M1 just happens to be particularly loud, as are most keyboards with some variant of Alps switches.

[ar55x]

Am myself deciding between Deck and Filco blacks. Will pick up one or the other as an xmas gift to myself :)

[AVT]

Just about all keyboards are louder than scissor. Cherry browns/blacks and Topres for example, will likely be quieter than your standard rubber dome board, so saying "all these keyboards are LOUD" is a bit misleading.

The M1 just happens to be particularly loud, as are most keyboards with some variant of Alps switches.

My bad, I assumed that the loudness associated with this keyboard was because it was using mechanical switches in general - it's louder than any rubber dome keyboard I've had.

I'll probably return this board and try out one made by Cherry.

[Daemas]

Am myself deciding between Deck and Filco blacks. Will pick up one or the other as an xmas gift to myself :)

Just bought a deck legend frost (with the cherry MX clear switches), hopefully it's worth the 80% of an intel 80GB G2:()

EDIT: I should be getting it on Friday

[Spare-Flair]

If I were to bust out one of my older keyboards or buy a genuine vintage mechanical one that people consider computer junk and therefore "cheap", are there any problems running them in a modern OS?

I remember they used to have adapters for the old AT DIN to PS2, is that workable for a modern system?

Out of all the modern mechanical solutions, I don't see any wireless options?

[WorldExclusive]

PS2 is still the best connection for keyboard to achieve true n-key rollover or pressing 6+ keys at the same time. You'll be fine.

[Eva_Unit_0]

If I were to bust out one of my older keyboards or buy a genuine vintage mechanical one that people consider computer junk and therefore "cheap", are there any problems running them in a modern OS?

I remember they used to have adapters for the old AT DIN to PS2, is that workable for a modern system?

Out of all the modern mechanical solutions, I don't see any wireless options?

yeah my M has an AT connector and I just run it through an AT->PS2 converter. Works fine. I have a PS2->USB adapter around here somewhere that I could try if ps2 ever goes away entirely, but after that many converters I don't know for sure if it will work.

[Daemas]

Just got my Deck legend Frost in the mail. This thing exudes quality. Worth the $176 (probably a $25 dollar premium because of the LEDs)? No way, but since it's the only one with LEDs, it'll have to do.. Will I ever want to go back to membrane keyboards? No way. I don't use any of the extra stuff that comes with keyboards nowadays anyways. I don't use media keys, macro keys, or USB hubs. This is a very well built, no frills, no bullshit keyboard. Plus I could use it to bludgeon somebody to death.

If the $176 is too rich for your blood, I recommend a Majestouch Tactile Touch NKRO (http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_104key&pid=fkbn104meb) It was the board i was going to buy until i heard about the decks.

[WorldExclusive]

I just bought a Deck Ice 82-Key from a forum member. I can't wait to test it!
This works for me since I'm a FPS/Action/Racing gamer. So I need a small footprint. No need for macros.

I'm thinking about buying the black non-transparent cover for it. I really don't like the see through cover.

[Chops]

Picked up a Unicomp Space Saver. It's definitely a change from the G15 V1 I had been using. Unicomp is much nicer to use and frees up quite a bit of room on my desk which I like. Sure is noisy though :eek:

Just hoping that someday I can score a sweet deal on a Topre Realforce.

[OkuluS]

Cherry Blacks are great for gaming. Whoever said they don't have any resistance is uninformed! It's just linear compared to the Blue's and Browns. The white's do look like a nice balance though I haven't gotten to try one yet.

Here's a little information for those interested in mechanical and other types of switches. The Topres have very intelligent 6+4 rollover, which should be more than enough for most people.

http://hothardware.com/cs/blogs/mrtg/archive/2009/03/08/mechanical-key-switch-keyboards-demystified.aspx

[WorldExclusive]

Well just giving an update. I just received my Deck Ice 82-Key board from the seller. It's absolutely amazing. Probably the best board I've ever used. I'm sure it has Cherry Black switches since there's no clicking and firmness but when the keys bottom out that's when you get that special mechanical sound. I'm using it for gaming and not much of a typist so the work best for me. Deck probably makes the only back-lit mechanical boards and I highly recommend them.

[mistachewey]

I've only owned dome type keyboards until a few days ago, when i got my IBM M in the mail:D

brings me back to when i learned to type on one in middle school. and no more sticky keys from that logitech anymore YAY!

[TaK]

buckling spring boards still have the best feel to them imho. after that, it's complicated ALPS/cherry blues, and cherry browns/topre capacitive.

for the money, i'd get a filco tenkeyless w/blues. it's worth it.

[Chops]

TaK, can you give any impressions on how the Comp. ALPS compare to the Simple ALPS? I was wondering when I was shopping but couldn't find anything solid on it aside from Simple using less parts inside the switch. I can't even think of a board that used Comp...

[TaK]

I'm not sure if you can even get complicated alps anymore.
That being said, if you can find any, complicated originals have a lighter keypress and a heavier click to them... sometimes. depends on when they were made. some people prefer simplified alps copies over the original, it's all a matter of taste really.

if you want to try some, get a filco w/ fukka switches, an old Dell AT101W, or an old apple extended keyboard. they all use ALPS, but have totally different feels to them.

[Chops]

Are the Filco's with XM whites the same as the White Fukkas? I see on elitekeyboards they have tenkeyless ones and the $50 B stock has XM's vs the $85 Fukka White

[TaK]

I've not used the XMs but they're supposed to be very stiff and uncomfortable compared to the fukkas. imho the fukka switches are really nice.

[DeFex]

Just got my Deck legend Frost in the mail. This thing exudes quality. Worth the $176 (probably a $25 dollar premium because of the LEDs)? No way, but since it's the only one with LEDs, it'll have to do.. Will I ever want to go back to membrane keyboards? No way. I don't use any of the extra stuff that comes with keyboards nowadays anyways. I don't use media keys, macro keys, or USB hubs. This is a very well built, no frills, no bullshit keyboard. Plus I could use it to bludgeon somebody to death.

If the $176 is too rich for your blood, I recommend a Majestouch Tactile Touch NKRO (http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_104key&pid=fkbn104meb) It was the board i was going to buy until i heard about the decks.

Its hard to tell from the picture on their site, do the LEDS shine through the letters themselves or just between the keys?

[speedy523]

sayu, can you post your impressions on the HHKB Pro 2?

im looking to pick it up for my new build, but just want to get some feedback on it before I drop around $250 on it :)

[WorldExclusive]

Its hard to tell from the picture on their site, do the LEDS shine through the letters themselves or just between the keys?

Each key is individually lit. They shine very bright through the letters also. The keys will never rub off.

I really like my Deck 82-key but I may buy a Deck Fire Legend in the near future.

[Spare-Flair]

Are there any good mechnical keyboard with more features than just the regular keys? I would love a volume knob for example.

[Spare-Flair]

If the $176 is too rich for your blood, I recommend a Majestouch Tactile Touch NKRO (http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_104key&pid=fkbn104meb) It was the board i was going to buy until i heard about the decks.

Wait a second, that Majestouch Tactile Touch NKRO looks identical to this ABS M1 keyboard at Newegg.

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823224001&nm_mc=OTC-sho6b0tCA&cm_mmc=OTC-sho6b0tCA-_-Keyboards-_-ABS-_-23224001

What's up with that? Reusing the same housing? Different keys? Or just a rebrand? Look at the capslock/numlock/scroll lock area and it's identical to the same font.

[WorldExclusive]

Are there any good mechnical keyboard with more features than just the regular keys? I would love a volume knob for example.

Map the F keys in windows.

The M1 uses Alps which is very loud on that board while the Filco uses blue, brown, black and white switches. They may look the same but the Filco is 10x better in quality.

[Spare-Flair]

Map the F keys in windows.

The M1 uses Alps which is very loud on that board while the Filco uses blue, brown, black and white switches. They may look the same but the Filco is 10x better in quality.

Is loudness not a selling point of mechanical keyboards? I guess I need to do more reading on this subject. It's too bad nobody carries these in brick and mortor stores so that you could actually demo typing on them to feel the difference.

[TaK]

Wait a second, that Majestouch Tactile Touch NKRO looks identical to this ABS M1 keyboard at Newegg.

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823224001&nm_mc=OTC-sho6b0tCA&cm_mmc=OTC-sho6b0tCA-_-Keyboards-_-ABS-_-23224001

What's up with that? Reusing the same housing? Different keys? Or just a rebrand? Look at the capslock/numlock/scroll lock area and it's identical to the same font.

They're from the same OEM manufacturer. Both of them are variations of the Costar CST-104, but the Filco has tons more features. It's got full NKRO, brown cherry switches (as opposed to the cheap ALPS variant on the ABS), better keycaps, better controller, etc.
iirc the Das, steelseries 7g, and several other mechanical keyboards are variations of the same Costar 'board.
They range in price, but it's like buying a base-model car vs. a fully loaded model.

[Auzner]

Model M 1391401 :cool:

[WorldExclusive]

Is loudness not a selling point of mechanical keyboards? I guess I need to do more reading on this subject. It's too bad nobody carries these in brick and mortor stores so that you could actually demo typing on them to feel the difference.

It's a silly loud sound. If you go to YouTube, there are people who type on the boards so you can hear the sound. Compare the sound of the M1 to the Filco and then you'll hear the quality. You don't want a board so loud that it interferes with your gaming or echos through your home.

[sayu]

sayu, can you post your impressions on the HHKB Pro 2?

im looking to pick it up for my new build, but just want to get some feedback on it before I drop around $250 on it :)

Short answer: I love Topre switches, I love my HHKB Pro 2. Generally speaking, I prefer my Realforce boards over the HHKB, but the HHKB's small size makes it great to take around with my laptop.

Long answer:
Switches -- Of all the switches I've tried, Topre switches are my favorite. It's hard to describe the feel of the switches without making them sound bad, so I won't even try.
For credibility's sake, I currently own boards with cherry brown/blue/black, alps white/black in a few variations, topre, buckling springs, and a few other obscure switches that are no longer in production.

Build quality -- The HHKB is light in weight compared to other mechanical boards, but decently heavy for its size when compared to your average Logitech. The switches in the HHKB are mounted on plastic instead of metal like the Realforce boards, but the board itself is still quite sturdy (no flex, even when you try twisting it). The keycaps have a nice textured finish to them and the lettering (if you get a model thats not blank) is dye-impregnated so it won't wear off.

Layout -- This is the part that makes or breaks the HHKB. I personally find the HHKB great for typing/coding, but bad for gaming (depending on the type of game). The DIP switches allow a little bit of customization with the layout, I personally have del set to backspace and left alt set to Fn.


Wait a second, that Majestouch Tactile Touch NKRO looks identical to this ABS M1 keyboard at Newegg.

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823224001&nm_mc=OTC-sho6b0tCA&cm_mmc=OTC-sho6b0tCA-_-Keyboards-_-ABS-_-23224001

What's up with that? Reusing the same housing? Different keys? Or just a rebrand? Look at the capslock/numlock/scroll lock area and it's identical to the same font.

The ABS M1 is made by the same OEM (Costar) as the Filco boards. There are a few differences between the M1 and the closest Filco equivalent though.

-The M1 uses black alps/fukka switches (tactile, non-clicky) while the Filco Zero uses white alps/fukka switches (tactile and clicky).
-The M1's case and keys have a different finish to them, its a coarser finish. The key lettering is also in a different font.
-The M1 has 2-key rollover and the Filco has 6-key rollover. However, both boards do suffer "the das problem" of key transposition when typing at high speeds (higher speeds than the das, so its not as common).


EDIT: Cleaned up post, was rushing earlier.

[TaK]

I heard something in the bible about god taking all the good keyboards up to heaven, and then all the keyboards that make transposition errors get left behind.

the end is nigh.

[speedy523]

*snip*

thanx for the reply.

i liked the small size of the HHKB while still retaining full size keys, and im probably going to get a separate keyboard for gaming, its just that im most likely not gonna drop this amount of money on a keyboard again any time soon so i wanted to make sure i picked the right one :D

also, do you have any recommendations for a particular site where to order the keyboards? ive only found one which sells the realforce and hhkb and its elitekeyboards.

and lastly, do you know of any stores which carry these kind of keyboards for trying out? since even though i may think i chose the right keyboard, ill never really know till i try them all out lol :)

[sayu]

Only places you'll even have a chance of seeing these boards in store are in Japan, or some other asian countries.

If you're in the US, the only real place to buy Topre boards is elitekeyboards. The only other way to get them would be to import them from Japan, which costs significantly more (my Realforce 101 and HHKB were purchased before elitekeyboards was around, paid $354 for the HHKB and $285 for the 101).

[Zuriick]

Snip.

I am exactly where Sayu is with my HHKB Pro. I have also been through a lot of different keyboards with various switches and I find the HHKB to be my favourite of all. I don't game at all so it is perfect for what I do. It's minimal and it has the keys I need, none of the macro/media/etc nonsense.

[black0ut]

I'm looking to buy a new keyboard (this microsoft comfort curve doesn't pick up half my keypresses) and I'm confused by "N-key rollover". It says it's specifically for when you press more than N keys at a time.... I don't think I would ever need that. I type at around 80 wpm (maybe more); would I need n-key rollover?

Btw, looking at the filco tactile touch/click.

[sayu]

For general typing, N-key rollover usually doesn't mean much. You'd probably have to be a typing god to break the standard 2-key rollover. NKRO is something that gamers find more important.

[kencheeto]

I'm looking to buy a new keyboard (this microsoft comfort curve doesn't pick up half my keypresses) and I'm confused by "N-key rollover". It says it's specifically for when you press more than N keys at a time.... I don't think I would ever need that. I type at around 80 wpm (maybe more); would I need n-key rollover?

Btw, looking at the filco tactile touch/click.

Don't think you'll need it. I type 120-130wpm and use my Filco tactile touch thru USB which precludes NKRO, haven't noticed any keys dropping. Comes with the PS/2 adapter so you can get NKRO, but I haven't seen any need yet.

[Spare-Flair]

NKRO is more for gamers than touch typists. Typists want accuracy in hitting only one key at once but gamers will appreciate accurate response when depressing multiple keys at once (moving while holding crouch or reloading, sprinting, etc.).

NKRO is what you find on piano keyboards so you can hit multiple notes IIRC.

[black0ut]

Now that I think about it, I do press multiple keys in games... what's the default level of NKRO when it doesn't explicitly say it has NKRO? e.g. the filco tactile touch non NKRO version.

[sayu]

2-key rollover is the general standard.

[black0ut]

2-key rollover is the general standard.

Eh, I usually press w+a/d+ctrl/space... this will be a tough call, an extra key for $35.

[sayu]

I don't know the exact conventions they use to get these n-key numbers, so this is just my view of it.

n-key numbers don't include modifiers and from what I see, 2-key rollover usually doesn't have issues till 4 keys from two different rows not counting modifiers. Example, a 2-key rollover board can usually do QA and QAW just fine but will have a problem with QAWS.

[n3ckcutta]

Has anyone here tried this keyboard out? I was interested in purchasing it to try out some mechanical keys. Looks great though, large left Ctrl key, no left windows key...

http://www.mwave.com/mwave/skusearch_v3.asp?scriteria=BA31651 (Cheaper)

or for newegg people:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823204017&cm_re=irocks_keyboard-_-23-204-017-_-Product

[rflcptr]

the logitech illuminated keyboard is nice.
That's not a mechanical keyboard, n00bie.

[sayu]

Has anyone here tried this keyboard out? I was interested in purchasing it to try out some mechanical keys. Looks great though, large left Ctrl key, no left windows key...

http://www.mwave.com/mwave/skusearch_v3.asp?scriteria=BA31651 (Cheaper)

or for newegg people:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823204017&cm_re=irocks_keyboard-_-23-204-017-_-Product

The board has a cheap version of 6-key rollover -- it's only for certain keys, not the entire board. The layout is pretty bad if you ever plan on typing IMO.

[skriefal]

Has anyone here tried this keyboard out? I was interested in purchasing it to try out some mechanical keys. Looks great though, large left Ctrl key, no left windows key...

http://www.mwave.com/mwave/skusearch_v3.asp?scriteria=BA31651 (Cheaper)

or for newegg people:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823204017&cm_re=irocks_keyboard-_-23-204-017-_-Product

I thought about it, then saw the position of the right Shift key. No thanks.

[NeoMatriX724]

The NKRO for the Filco is about 6-keys at once for USB. PS/2 provides full NKRO functionality. I use one at work, and find it fantastic. My old dell boards at work really were terrible on the rollover and it'd trip me up quite often (as well as quality issues). On the Filco, even 6 key rollover is overkill. If you're not the fastest typist and are getting the board purely for typing (as opposed to gaming), I'd say just save yourself the 35 bucks.

[Metaluna]

It's a silly loud sound. If you go to YouTube, there are people who type on the boards so you can hear the sound. Compare the sound of the M1 to the Filco and then you'll hear the quality. You don't want a board so loud that it interferes with your gaming or echos through your home.

That's why I'm thinking of selling my DAS (Cherry blues). It's a well-made board but makes a really loud sort of snap-CLUNK sound on every keypress (the snap is the Cherry switch, and the clunk is the key bottoming out). It's almost like the designers went out of their way to make the loudest noise possible. My Model M and Unicomps are loud too, but for some reason the sound isn't as irritating to me. Maybe because the resistance is higher so the keys don't bottom out as hard.

[swiftstrike]

This thread made me super interested in mechanical keyboards. I've been doing some research on them on the internet. All of it make me want to go try one, but the looking at the price tags just hurts, being only a 1st year college student w/o a job yet. Plus I don't really "need" one. But I think the old keyboards in my dorm computer lab are mechanical. One of the first clues was that it weighed a lot. The keys were very light, but I don't think they are tactile. The brand is called Wyse apparently. I think I got to go try typing some more on them to see if I like it. O yea, any advice on where I can get a cheap tactile mechanical keyboard?

[SockMan!]

If you want new, the ABS M1 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823224001) is probably one of the cheapest mechanical keyboards out there. A few bucks more and you can spring for a Unicomp (http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/)keyboard, which should be similar to the classic IBM Model M buckling spring keyboards. I haven't tried either since I already have a Filco, but either will probably be better than most membrane keyboards.

If you don't mind used, you can try rummaging around the computer labs and asking the professors there; they might have a few Ms around (though probably not in use since they are very noisy).

[Chops]

http://www.ergogeek.com/ione-scorpius-m10-mechanical-key-switch-keyboard-usb-ps-2-black.html

The scorpius is well recommended as a first/inexpensive board. It uses cherry mx blue switches. Personally I went for the Unicomp Spacesaver and absolutely love the thing.

[swiftstrike]

I imagine the noise of the Model M/ Unicomps will be very annoying to my roommate/ future roommates during my college years. I do want to try one though. I haven't seen any model M's at my college yet, but I have yet to visit all the computer labs. The scorpius looks really nice, but I don't really want to jump into mechanical keyboards with such a high price, even though it's considered pretty cheap in the mechanical keyboard world. Would you guys recommend getting something dated like the Dell AT101w from ebay?

[sayu]

I'm not too fond of the AT101W's myself, but I know some people do like them. I'd say to try looking for something like a Compaq MX-11800 (Cherry brown switches) as a cheap starting point.

[Metaluna]

If you're worried about annoying a roommate, I'd avoid any of the audible clicky switches, including cherry blues and buckling springs. I personally find the sound of the blues more irritating than the buckling springs, but it's purely a personal issue. It's impossible to predict what someone else will or won't like, so I would try to minimize the issue entirely and try to find a quiet tactile board (e.g. Cherry browns).

[NeoMatriX724]

The Cherry Blue's (used in Das Keyboard, etc) are pretty noisy. You can very clearly hear typing on those from at least another room. Depending on the pace of typing it can definitely distract those who are not used to hearing it.

The Cherry Brown's lack the distinctive CLICK. But are not really terribly loud. They just sound different than regular (cheaper) keyboards out there. But part of this depends on the typist itself. If you type with a soft touch, the keyboards are really not much louder than any regular keyboards out there. If you really hammer the keys, the keyboard can get pretty loud and obnoxious.

If you can get over the noise of the boards, they really are much better keyboards to type on than the POS $3 buck keyboards you get with a PC.

[Metaluna]

Are there people who can actually type on a cherry brown board without bottoming out the keys? If you could it would be nearly silent (and my hat's off to you).

[NeoMatriX724]

That'd be a feat in and of itself. The ones who slam down on the keys with the hammer of thor are the ones that make it sound ridiculously loud. If you've gotten used to the board, you can normally get it so you're hitting the keys with exactly the right amount of force and pretty much on your return before you bottom out the key.

I've gotten to the point where most of the time, I'm fairly quiet and typing at a reasonably fast clip. However, If I start typing at full speed with no regard for sound or just trying to rapidly throw something into a page, then it gets pretty loud.

[swiftstrike]

I'm not too fond of the AT101W's myself, but I know some people do like them. I'd say to try looking for something like a Compaq MX-11800 (Cherry brown switches) as a cheap starting point.

I think the cherry browns of the Compaq MX- 11800 would be perfect. It looks kind of big width -wise with the buttons in that formation, but I bet typing on it would be great. Now if only I can find a seller...Right now the only one on eBay is ~$60 shipped :(. I found an ad for one on this one site, but they did not advertise the price or show any pictures. It looks like a place for company's and businesses to post ads for various equipment.

[ShinyFalcon]

Try putting some non-adhesive liner underneath your keyboard for padding. It made my space key, the noisiest key on my Filco (Cherry brown), much less clunkier. The liner can be bought at Walmart for around $4 somewhere in the kitchen area. I can't seem to maintain light touches, otherwise my hands starts cramping up.

[Michaelius]

I must say this topic got me interested in those wonderous clicky keyboards as i'm getting tired of my UltraFlat logitech.
I'm mostly interested in ABS M1 (cheap and seems to be very good for gaming while still being one of silent ones).
There's just one small problem I live in EU and can't find even one shop which would ship them to Europe. If someone knows one I'll be greatfull for help.

The only one i can get locally is Steel Series 7g for around 100 euro but that's a bit too much for me for equipment i might find to be not my taste.

[sayu]

The ABS M1 is a great value, but do be warned, it is NOT quiet.

If you're in Europe, you might be better off trying to find some Cherry keyboards. Particularly the G80 series. Cherry has A LOT of models, some of which are using rubber domes, scissor, etc so do some research if you decide to buy Cherry. I personally prefer Cherry MX switches over the ALPS used in the ABS M1.

[BrownThunder]

Would anyone know how much this would be worth these days?

Its an NMB keyboard, mechanical of course, model # rt8256cw+

http://i50.tinypic.com/2lwwrr8.jpg

There's a pic. It's still sealed up inside of the cardboard box.

Currently taking offers if anyone is interested ;)

[drgnfang]

The ABS M1 is a great value, but do be warned, it is NOT quiet.

If you're in Europe, you might be better off trying to find some Cherry keyboards. Particularly the G80 series. Cherry has A LOT of models, some of which are using rubber domes, scissor, etc so do some research if you decide to buy Cherry. I personally prefer Cherry MX switches over the ALPS used in the ABS M1.Yeah, gotta agree on the ABS. I'm not sure who thinks the ABS M1 is quiet. It isn't. At all. It may be (slightly) quieter than some other mechanical keyboards, but it is most definitely not quiet. It is comparable to the Dell AT101w (got several of those off ebay dirty cheap).

I'm actually looking at the Filco's for a possible replacement of my ABS. Probably the Tenkeyless Tactile Click "Otaku"

[Michaelius]

It's kind of moot point at the moment because it's impossible to buy it here anyway.

And they are totally absent from ebay too.

In the end i'll probably finish with bitting the bullet and getting Steelseries as that's the only one i can get without importing. But I'm not yet mentally ready to spend 100 euro on keyboard :D

[sayu]

http://www.keyboardco.com/ has a decent selection of mechanical keyboards (Cherry and Filco) and is based in Europe. Might want to give them a look.

[ighardcore]

I splurged and ordered a Filco w/ brown switches last week, just arrived today, and after tonight I don't think I'll ever look back.. This is simply amazing to type on compared to anything else I've ever used. Makes me wonder how they are kept such a secret!

[Solstice]

http://www.keyboardco.com/ has a decent selection of mechanical keyboards (Cherry and Filco) and is based in Europe. Might want to give them a look.
Thank you very much for this URL, Sayu!

I'm wondering guys, how good a match is Filco's leather wrist rest together with their keyboards? Don't find any annoying edges digging into your wrists when using it?
Seriously considering getting myself one with the brown switches.

[drgnfang]

assuming no one answers here, check on geekhack - lots of filco users there.

[WorldExclusive]

I'm looking to buy another Deck keyboard soon. I had the 88-Key Deck Ice, now I may what another 88-key Ice or Fire version or I may spring for the Legend. These are hard to find second hand though.

[kohan69]

I got a scorpius with blue swtiches at first.

Liked it, but the build quality isn't anywhere near a FILCO

Right now I have a FILCO black switch tenkeyless, looking for a palmrest to match, but it feels very very very very different from the cherry blues.

I want to try Cherry Browns now
(buyers be warned, keyboard collection is addicting!
But due to mechanical keyboard's rarity, they tend to maintain their high price value unlike other computer hardware)

Althought I don't have one yet, I'd recommend an ABS M1 to someone who games, over the Scorpius M10 as the first Mechanical Keyboard!

[Kett]

...I may spring for the Legend. These are hard to find second hand though.

Built like tanks + people love them = no one getting rid of old ones. :)

I have a "Toxic" Legend right now, got it back when they only made them with the Cherry Blacks that don't "click" until you bottom them out. I love the board, but I wish they'd had the Cherry Clears they have in a couple legend models now when I bought mine. I think I really do prefer that tactile "click" over the linears. Maybe I will buy another and bring one to work. :D But yeah, it is hard to justify the $$, (especially when you already have one) but if you don't have one yet I would say get some kind of mechanical! Having a nice keyboard is not a waste for interfacing with a machine you spend hours at every day.

Btw, what's up with Deck's site now? It used to be cool with a black background and artsy marketing style. Now its...bland, to put it nicely. When did that change?

[Vittra]

Thank you very much for this URL, Sayu!

I'm wondering guys, how good a match is Filco's leather wrist rest together with their keyboards? Don't find any annoying edges digging into your wrists when using it?
Seriously considering getting myself one with the brown switches.

Perfect match. I love mine and couldn't imagine using my Filco without it.

[WorldExclusive]

Built like tanks + people love them = no one getting rid of old ones. :)

I have a "Toxic" Legend right now, got it back when they only made them with the Cherry Blacks that don't "click" until you bottom them out. I love the board, but I wish they'd had the Cherry Clears they have in a couple legend models now when I bought mine. I think I really do prefer that tactile "click" over the linears. Maybe I will buy another and bring one to work. :D But yeah, it is hard to justify the $$, (especially when you already have one) but if you don't have one yet I would say get some kind of mechanical! Having a nice keyboard is not a waste for interfacing with a machine you spend hours at every day.

Btw, what's up with Deck's site now? It used to be cool with a black background and artsy marketing style. Now its...bland, to put it nicely. When did that change?

Their forums still have the cool black background. The Deck Ice with black switches was excellent for gaming but typing was not that great. The keys felt bouncy due to the resistance of the switches. Now, I'm considering the Legend with blue or white switches, but I wouldn't mind another one with black switches. Too bad Deck doesn't use brown switches.

[imyourzero]

Their forums still have the cool black background. The Deck Ice with black switches was excellent for gaming but typing was not that great. The keys felt bouncy due to the resistance of the switches. Now, I'm considering the Legend with blue or white switches, but I wouldn't mind another one with black switches. Too bad Deck doesn't use brown switches.

Loving my Filco w/Brown switches! They feel nice and are pretty quiet compared to my Das Keyboard with Cherry Blues, but I'd still like to try the Clear and White switches (mechanical keyboards can easily spark curiosity and/or addiction!). Just not sure about the blacks since I do like to feel the actuation point, and after that comment about them being "bouncy" makes me glad I went tactile for both of my mechanicals. I know a lot of people like them, though.

[Vittra]

Honestly, the only purpose for Cherry MX Blacks are for gaming which is exactly why I got mine. If you are looking at a board for just typing, it isn't the way to go and not worth consideration. MX Brown are probably the best of both worlds in regards to typing and gaming, so you are probably set. Clears should be nearly identical to the Blues of your Das - just slightly more resistance on the keys. (I think it's something like 55g vs 50g)

[imyourzero]

Thanks Vittra. I'd like to try the blacks because I've never used a linear mechanical switch, but these keyboards aren't cheap and I'd rather try one at a friend's than spend $120+ just to satisfy my curiosity. I do a moderate amount of gaming, and to be honest I think the browns and blues are excellent because of the clearly-defined actuation point; i.e. I always know when the key is going to respond. I find myself sometimes "preloading" the keys where I'll depress them to the point of actuation so I know I'm on the verge of the key registering a stroke. The blues are extremely satisfying to type on, but sometimes the noise can get bothersome (esp. for late-night gaming sessions). The browns are excellent and are what I've been using lately, but since they require less pressure to activate than some other switches I can see why they might not be ideal for heavy-handed gamers that could find themselves accidentally pressing keys.

I would love to try a Topre Realforce board since I hear the Topre switches are really pleasant to type on, and quieter than many mechanical boards. But they are among the most expensive, and since the switch design incorporates a rubber dome I'm worried that the longevity wouldn't be as good as with a pure mechanical design.

Maybe one of these days I'll see a SteelSeries 7G so I can try the Cherry blacks. I am the only one I know that is willing to pay the premium for a mechanical board, so I'll just have to hope that I see one in a store or something. :(

[Dan_D]

I think people misunderstand how the Cherry MX Black switches feel. They are linear and non-tactile, but you do know when they are going to respond. The Cherry MX Black switches have virtually no resistance and bottom out rather easily. I've never "short-stroked" a key press. For anyone worried about that being a problem, don't.

However, I do prefer the Cherry MX Blue switches as they are very similar in feel to the IBM Model M keyboards.

[Michaelius]

http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_details.asp?PRODUCT=621

Are the Filco ZERO Tenkeyless series any good ? They seem to be using non-cherry switches.

[sok0]

I think people misunderstand how the Cherry MX Black switches feel. They are linear and non-tactile, but you do know when they are going to respond. The Cherry MX Black switches have virtually no resistance and bottom out rather easily. I've never "short-stroked" a key press. For anyone worried about that being a problem, don't.

However, I do prefer the Cherry MX Blue switches as they are very similar in feel to the IBM Model M keyboards.

The blacks definitely have resistance all the way down, and it is quite a bit more than any of the other ones. I don't mind my filco with cherry blacks, but I do wish they were about 10-15g lighter resistance. But you do get used to them.

Cherry MX Black (linear) - 40-80g, 60g at activation point
Cherry (MX Blue) - 50g
Cherry (MX Brown) - 45g
Cherry (MX Clear) - 55g
ALPS White (simplified) - 60-70g (filco zero uses these)

[Dan_D]

I'd love a keyboard with the back lighting that Deck uses with Cherry MX Blue switches. Hell I'd love for Deck to make one. While not the most popular keyboard maker on the forum, I've been VERY pleased with mine.

[WorldExclusive]

Deck does make Cherry Blues with backlighting or are you talking about something else?

[Vittra]

The blacks definitely have resistance all the way down, and it is quite a bit more than any of the other ones. I don't mind my filco with cherry blacks, but I do wish they were about 10-15g lighter resistance. But you do get used to them.

Cherry MX Black (linear) - 40-80g, 60g at activation point
Cherry (MX Blue) - 50g
Cherry (MX Brown) - 45g
Cherry (MX Clear) - 55g
ALPS White (simplified) - 60-70g (filco zero uses these)

Cherry MX Red are linear switches with less resistance than black (45g like the Browns). I think the only keyboard manufacturer to have used them was "Cherry" on some of their G80 line of models though. I would really like to try one of those, but don't want to go through the nonsense of trying to find one.

[Dan_D]

Deck does make Cherry Blues with backlighting or are you talking about something else?

They do not. They make keyboards with the Cherry MX Black and Cherry MX Brown switches. The Cherry MX Blues are the tactile, clicky kind similar to the IBM buckling spring switches in terms of feel and sound. They do not make any like that. They have linear, non-tactile, non-clicky, and tactile, non-clicky.

[WorldExclusive]

OK I had to read their site again. They don't make blue switches.

[Dan_D]

If Deck ever makes a keyboard with the Cherry MX Blue switches I'll be one of the first to buy one.

[Vittra]

I don't think Deck is currently making Cherry Brown boards. As far as their site indicates, they should still be Cherry MX Clear on the tactile side. Geekhack's wiki seems to be updated and still reflects this as well.

Deck really should just plainly indicate which using at any point in time. :)

[WorldExclusive]

Deck changes there tactile switches from time to time, so they don't state all the versions they have made.

[Solstice]

Going to place an order this weekend with Keyboardco.com now that they've got leather Filco wristrests back in stock.

Problem is, I'm really torn between what switch to chose!
I was heavily leaning towards getting Cherry Brown's but was concerned that the keys would be too light to the touch. As a comparison, do they go down easier than generic rubber dome switches found in cheap keyboards?

Black's: best for gaming (I am a gamer but it's not the only serious use I have for my computer) but are they really as unsuitable for typing on as some sources have suggested?

Blue's: seem to be very popular but I really don't know what to think of them, worried a little about noise

Thanks for help.

[Dan_D]

Going to place an order this weekend with Keyboardco.com now that they've got leather Filco wristrests back in stock.

Problem is, I'm really torn between what switch to chose!
I was heavily leaning towards getting Cherry Brown's but was concerned that the keys would be too light to the touch. As a comparison, do they go down easier than generic rubber dome switches found in cheap keyboards?

Yes they do depress easier than the membrane/rubber dome based keys.

Black's: best for gaming (I am a gamer but it's not the only serious use I have for my computer) but are they really as unsuitable for typing on as some sources have suggested?

Horseshit. They are excellent to type on. Vastly superior to any membrane keyboard I've ever tried. These types of switches are used in POS systems and were used in an IBM model of keyboard that predated the Model M. It was an 84 key, keyboard. I rather enjoy typing on it. Though I do prefer the IBM Model M, or anything with Cherry MX Blue switches in them over one equipped with Cherry MX Black switches. My current keyboard is equipped with the Cherry MX Black's. It has been quite enjoyable to type on for the last two years.

A friend of mine sat down on my computer to check his E-Mail one day. He had never used a mechanical keyboard before, much less understand why I paid $150 for the Deck I have now. Once he typed on it he understood the reason immediately. Now he wants one.

Blue's: seem to be very popular but I really don't know what to think of them, worried a little about noise

The noise bothers some people but It doesn't bother me. It may bother others, but I don't care. It isn't as if I've got people listening to me type all the time.

Thanks for help.

Anytime. :)

[WorldExclusive]

Horseshit. They are excellent to type on. Vastly superior to any membrane keyboard I've ever tried. These types of switches are used in POS systems and were used in an IBM model of keyboard that predated the Model M. It was an 84 key, keyboard. I rather enjoy typing on it. Though I do prefer the IBM Model M, or anything with Cherry MX Blue switches in them over one equipped with Cherry MX Black switches. My current keyboard is equipped with the Cherry MX Black's. It has been quite enjoyable to type on for the last two years.


When I had my Deck with black switches, it was my first mechanical keyboard. Gaming was perfect, but when I used it for typing the keys were going faster than my fingers, since you don't have to bottom out the keys like on a membrane keyboard. The Deck increased my typing speed and kept me from making fat finger key presses because of the black switches. I guess since I was used to typing on $5 keyboards that I want less resistance, but thinking back on it, the black switches were the best for a slower typer and gamer like myself.

[sayu]

Problem is, I'm really torn between what switch to chose!
I was heavily leaning towards getting Cherry Brown's but was concerned that the keys would be too light to the touch. As a comparison, do they go down easier than generic rubber dome switches found in cheap keyboards?

Black's: best for gaming (I am a gamer but it's not the only serious use I have for my computer) but are they really as unsuitable for typing on as some sources have suggested?

Blue's: seem to be very popular but I really don't know what to think of them, worried a little about noise

Thanks for help.

Having used just about all of the major switch types, in my opinion the blacks are not the greatest switches for gaming or typing. I personally just don't like the feel of it. Don't get me wrong, it is still leagues better than membrane boards, but it's got some stiff competition in the mechanical market. For a board that will be used for both gaming and typing, I would go with the browns.

Note: I do have a preference for lighter switches, so if you like to pound keys and don't wish to change your style, browns may not be for you.

[kidgonesmall]

Man I am really tempted to buy a DAS keyboard now

[Dan_D]

Having used just about all of the major switch types, in my opinion the blacks are not the greatest switches for gaming or typing. I personally just don't like the feel of it. Don't get me wrong, it is still leagues better than membrane boards, but it's got some stiff competition in the mechanical market. For a board that will be used for both gaming and typing, I would go with the browns.

Note: I do have a preference for lighter switches, so if you like to pound keys and don't wish to change your style, browns may not be for you.

Well I like the feel of the Cherry MX Blacks well enough or I wouldn't have had my Deck Ice Legend for two years now. As far as mechanical key switches, the Cherry MX Blues are where its at as far as I am concerned. That's always been my favorite type of key switch. I currently own a few keyboards with switches that are similar to the Cherry MX Browns, and again while they beat out the membrane keyboards, I just don't like the feel of them. I want the "click" in the tactile feedback from the key switch, not the "bump". If I can't have that then I'd rather have the linear and non-tactile feeling keys.

Man I am really tempted to buy a DAS keyboard now

I have had the same thought off and on since the Das Keyboard Professional was released. And funny you should mention that because I picked one up at Microcenter just a few hours ago and I'm now typing this post on it. :)

[Solstice]

Thanks for your input guys, I threw myself in the deep-end and just ordered a full-size Filco with the brown switches + wrist rest.
Will report back with my findings come next week!

[Dan_D]

I've been using my Das Keyboard Professional for just under a day and I have to say, I like it. It feels much better to me than the Deck Ice Legend's Cherry MX Black switches do. I also appreciate the keyboard's smaller foot print which frees up already non-existent desk space for me. So far this is the best keyboard I've used since the IBM Model M I used to have way back in the day. I've never used any of Filco's offerings so I can't speak to their quality or compare the Das Keyboard to them. The main reason I went with Das Keyboard is because they had one at Microcenter and I was able to test it out before I bought it. I don't think anyone stocks Filco's keyboards locally to allow me to do the same.

Anyway, I'm pretty happy so far.