Microsoft Ditches 720P and Anti-Aliasing Requirements for XBOX360

[Blackstone]

I think this is a fascinating development. If the moderators want to kill this thread and post their own in the front page news forum go right ahead but I thought it might fit in here.

Apparently Microsoft has lifted the minimum 720P resolution and anti-aliasing mandates from its Technical Certification Requirements ("TCR").

as of March 2009, Xbox 360 developers are no longer required to utilize full-screen anti-aliasing in their games. The elimination of both requirements is especially noteworthy since the console maker had touted that all 360 games would run at a minimum of 720p with at least 2x FSAA since before the hardware launched.

http://gametab.com/news/3103528/

[freakycody]

Interesting news... a step in the wrong direction I would think. Though this really will only affect the mediocre to bad games as the leading developers should still be putting out high quality games, otherwise their sales will begin to suffer.

One thing to also realize this should bring more games to the 360. There are many games that do not look amazing yet are still amazingly fun games to play (great stories, puzzles, multiplayer, etc) that would not have met Microsoft's TCRs. So maybe this could be a good thing also.

[phide]

Unfortunate, though it's not like games have had to render at 720p on the 360 in the first place. That particular 'requirement' is really not as it seems (as we all know).

[Psychotext]

That requirement has been avoidable since day one if you asked nicely.

[Technoob]

Unfortunate, though it's not like games have had to render at 720p on any console this gen in the first place.

fixed

[Vengance_01]

I think we are seeing this because game engines are pushing the 360 and it can no longer handle AA while maintaining acceptable frame rates. That's just my guess.

[Technoob]

I think we are seeing this because game engines are pushing the 360 and it can no longer handle AA while maintaining acceptable frame rates. That's just my guess.

I love how the ps3 and 360 have been releasing sub 720 games this entire gen, but this announcement suddenly means a change in the hardware or game engines...

[ClearM4]

This is actually a step in the right direction. I could care less what the actually resolution or FPS is. All that matters is games continue to look and run better. Better graphical engines and coding techniques often replace these issues well (example: motion blur).

It always makes me laugh reading the sticky "True 1080p games", which lists all arcade or shitty games for the xbox360 and PS3.

[JohnleMVP]

I agree with ClearM4.
At this point the change will actually allow devs to be more creative to get more performance and graphics out of the system. Optimizing is often about reducing one thing to improve another. The end result hopefully is better overall.

[Serpico]

That requirement has been avoidable since day one if you asked nicely.

This was done with Halo 3, yeah? There was ridiculous internet nerd rage because it didn't render at 720p. Its understandable to shave off some pixels in order to maintain a smooth framerate and add more enemies, extend draw distance, etc, especially if the difference in the final output isn't compromised as a result.

[Psychotext]

This was done with PGR3, a launch game... and many games since. If I was a betting man, I'd say they've done this so that third parties who have released sub HD versions of multiplatform games on the PS3 can do it just as easily on the 360 (rather than only select groups like the CoD team).

[Ladic]

isnt halo 3 less than 720p?

[LostStorm]

isnt halo 3 less than 720p?

I think its 640p

[The_Law]

Yeah, it is strange that they even bothered to make this "official." It wasn't enforced before, so I am not sure why they would even bring it up. Just creates fanboy fodder (though PS3 is in the same position as far as games below 720p).

[phide]

There was ridiculous internet nerd rage because it didn't render at 720p.
The fact that these games are advertised as 720p is what sparked the nerd rage. When a box says that it's 720p right on the box, we are, in a sense, paying by the pixel.

Technically, you could render at 320x240, upscale to 1280x720, and the back of the box would still be adorned with the '720p' logo. That's a problem.

[Technoob]

The fact that these games are advertised as 720p is what sparked the nerd rage. When a box says that it's 720p right on the box, we are, in a sense, paying by the pixel.

Technically, you could render at 320x240, upscale to 1280x720, and the back of the box would still be adorned with the '720p' logo. That's a problem.

Most of them have 1080p on the box too. Hell, everytime someone makes a list of 1080p games, people want to include MGS4 for example, because it says 1080p right there on the box. Oh noez. Shit gets upscaled, it's not a big deal.

[MiG31_Foxhound]

I think we are seeing this because game engines are pushing the 360 and it can no longer handle AA while maintaining acceptable frame rates. That's just my guess.

Exactly. This is precisely how they intended to stretch this generation to 2011 or 2012 or whatever the unofficial date is now.

I could care less what the actually resolution or FPS is. All that matters is games continue to look and run better.

Are you trying to catch us sleeping? Is this a test? You just said you don't prioritize image quality or framerate, as long as you see measurable improvements in exactly those parameters. Everyone should be concerned, to some degree, about this because the 360 already struggles to handle GTA4 and just about every engine that's not UE3. Granted, it's not going to look great when plugged into my PC monitor, but the attrocious resolution is noticable on anything but a SDTV. Are you all really content to play on SDTVs until next gen?

[Technoob]

Everyone should be concerned, to some degree, about this because the 360 already struggles to handle GTA4 and just about every engine that's not UE3.

What the hell are you babbling about?

[phide]

Shit gets upscaled, it's not a big deal.
Yeah, it kind of is.

[Technoob]

Yeah, it kind of is.

Boo fucking hoo. Someone stoled my extra 80p from my haloz! My ps3 COD4 was missing 120p's. I want them back!

waaa. If you're whining about resolution, play pc games. Pixel counters give me gas.

[Stereophile]

damage control :rolleyes:

[Twinkie]

Put me in the "I don't care" camp.

As long as it is fun, looks good, and entertains me, I'll play it.

[aop]

Boo fucking hoo. Someone stoled my extra 80p from my haloz! My ps3 COD4 was missing 120p's. I want them back!

waaa. If you're whining about resolution, play pc games. Pixel counters give me gas.
1280*720 has 50% more pixels than 1024*600. IMHO that's pretty noticeable difference.

[Technoob]

1280*720 has 50% more pixels than 1024*600. IMHO that's pretty noticeable difference.

And? 1080p is an even higher res. And there are gamers who go way beyond that. So what? If you're going to cry about resolution on any of the consoles, game on a pc.

Personally, I can't stand games without AA, I'd rather have lower res than AA. But guess what, I can play cod4 on my ps3 at 600p, or I can play it on my 3 year old computer at 1080 with mad AA and image quality. Or I could cry about it like a fucking baby on a message board.

I know what I'll pick.

[jonneymendoza]

I think we are seeing this because game engines are pushing the 360 and it can no longer handle AA while maintaining acceptable frame rates. That's just my guess.

AA? what 360 game has AA?

[MiG31_Foxhound]

What the hell are you babbling about?

It's pretty obvious. The xbox is having difficulty playing modern titles at acceptable framerates without sacrificing image quality, or vice versa. You don't need to go fanboy rabid and argue it because the proof is at the very top of this thread. GTA4 happens to be the worst offender, with framerate dropping into the teens frequently enough to be distracting. However, lots of others have been showing signs, such as mangled, blurry textures (Bioshock.) Developers have even noticed the handwriting on the walls and are trying to develop games centered on indoor gameplay to try to maintain IQ and framerate (Dead Space, Batman: AA) If you don't care to acknowledge it, that's quite alright. I play most of my games on the PC anyway so it's no skin off my back. I just feel bad that MS is maintaining the relevence of its hardware moving forward when such a strategy is obviously detrimental to those gamers who claim that they desire graphical complexity in new games.

[Technoob]

It's pretty obvious. The xbox is having difficulty playing modern titles at acceptable framerates without sacrificing image quality, or vice versa. You don't need to go fanboy rabid and argue it because the proof is at the very top of this thread. GTA4 happens to be the worst offender, with framerate dropping into the teens frequently enough to be distracting. However, lots of others have been showing signs, such as mangled, blurry textures (Bioshock.) Developers have even noticed the handwriting on the walls and are trying to develop games centered on indoor gameplay to try to maintain IQ and framerate (Dead Space, Batman: AA) If you don't care to acknowledge it, that's quite alright. I play most of my games on the PC anyway so it's no skin off my back. I just feel bad that MS is maintaining the relevence of its hardware moving forward when such a strategy is obviously detrimental to those gamers who claim that they desire graphical complexity in new games.

Ok, it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about, or are willfully spreading fud, because that's quite a bit of made up bullshit.

[phide]

Boo fucking hoo...waaa.
Or I could cry about it like a fucking baby on a message board.
Hmm.

Ok, it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about, or are willfully spreading fud, because that's quite a bit of made up bullshit.
You mad?

[Technoob]

Hmm.


You mad?

umad.gif

[Crapinapale]

... Developers have even noticed the handwriting on the walls and are trying to develop games centered on indoor gameplay to try to maintain IQ and framerate (Dead Space, Batman: AA)...

Deadspace is indoors because it's, ohh I don't know, in space... And last I checked Arkham Asylum was a building, so yea... indoors. I don't see how those were forced indoors for frame rate issues. Calling shenanigans on that one captain.

And if you're saying that the ideas originated from the need to be indoors, that's also a load of crap. Dead Space (last I checked) was meant to be scary. Confinement and corners, not big open fields, are what people feel more anxious towards.

Arkham Asylum was designed to be a nerdfest playground. "OMG I get to be batman and beat up every batman bad guy" was the point of the game and the best way to do it in the batman universe was at Arkham Asylum. (Not bashing Batman:AA, I loved the game, just stating what it is)

I'm by no means a 360 fanboy, I use both systems equally. I just think that this line of reasoning in your post was pulled right out of your ass.

[noobman]

umad.gif

You belong on NeoGAF.

---

Project Gotham Racing 3, an Xbox360 launch title, rendered below 720p and received certification. They weren't really enforcing the 720p requirement, so the fact that it's now "ditched" isn't a huge deal.

I can't think of any games that don't use AA on the 360 off the top of my head, but I'm sure they exist.

[MetalX]

Gotta keep up with the latest PS3 engines? Sorry, too lazy to read the thread.

[Azureth]

What's wrong with making people work on hard the games for your console? All it means is they can't be lazy.

[pothb]

Ste p in the wrong direction indeed. Now, the other point is also true. Its not really a perfect list of 720 up. There are games thatmade it through, bigger games. can't give a list, I don't look it up much. But Halo 3 was big and made it through and hell, it was all over the gaming news.

[zamardii]

Am I missing something? How is this relevant? If I remember correctly, Halo 3 wasn't even 720p. It was like 640 or something.

[Technoob]

Am I missing something? How is this relevant? If I remember correctly, Halo 3 wasn't even 720p. It was like 640 or something.

It's just bad internet journalism flying around the gaming blogs and such. Just like the "netflix exclusive to 360" non news that was actually years old that got reported a few weeks ago as if it were something new. Says more about how big of followers the internet gaming "press" networks are than anything. As has been pointed out over and over, there have been games literally from launch, for both systems, that render at sub 720. But it's big news and sign of a trend all of a sudden :rolleyes:

[MisterSparkle]

Bah, 720p was so last year, when's the good tech coming? :p

[SoFGR]

you ppl need to calibrate your HDTV or get your eyes checked or something, there IS a difference between fake HD and true 1920*1080 games, quite noticable on my 40W4000 i might add, i've played many upscaled games like halo3 and compared them with the ridge racer 7 demo which is a true 1080p title, i can definately tell that it looks MUCH crisper with very little visible aliasing compared to the usual blurry jaggie-fest we see on both consoles (like infamous ), true 1080p and 60fps fixed SHOULD be the minimum requirements not 720p 2x AA and 30fps,but it seems that the hardware doesn't cut it, too bad :(

[Technoob]

you ppl need to calibrate your HDTV or get your eyes checked or something, there IS a difference between fake HD and true 1920*1080 games, quite noticable on my 40W4000 i might add, i've played many upscaled games like halo3 and compared them with the ridge racer 7 demo which is a true 1080p title, i can definately tell that it looks MUCH crisper with very little visible aliasing compared to the usual blurry jaggie-fest we see on both consoles (like infamous ), true 1080p and 60fps fixed SHOULD be the minimum requirements not 720p 2x AA and 30fps,but it seems that the hardware doesn't cut it, too bad :(

And the full list of true 1080 games can be counted on your hands and feet basically. So again, if you don't like anything sub 1080, what could you possibly have to be interested in on consoles, other than maybe half a dozen full retail games, and a few dozen downloadable small games?

It's like going to applebees and bitching up a storm that you're not getting a good steak. Don't go there then.

[MisterSparkle]

And the full list of true 1080 games can be counted on your hands and feet basically

Well, isn't half the point of a min requirement to increase the number of games at said resolutions? Guess it comes down to blame, and who it's more on; the console makers and their hardware limitations, or the game developers.

[Dome]

as a console ages, game developers should be expected to push the boundaries of the hardware. if the developers can create games that look good, run well and are fun to play on the current console, why would you complain?

would you rather a console be like a computer? have a 2-3 year life span before needing to be upgraded just to play a couple of games that are fun? i feel like that's for the PC gamers. if you can afford to keep paying to upgrade, more power to you. hell i wish i had the money or inclination to keep doing that like i used to.

unfortunately i don't, so i understand that MS set a minimum standard (upscaled or no) in order to have early games that look good. now, developers are making games that look much better, and don't need to simply follow that number (to which most people don't even pay attention) and settle with games that run smoother and still look damn nice.

[MiG31_Foxhound]

Deadspace is indoors because it's, ohh I don't know, in space... And last I checked Arkham Asylum was a building, so yea... indoors. I don't see how those were forced indoors for frame rate issues. Calling shenanigans on that one captain.

And if you're saying that the ideas originated from the need to be indoors, that's also a load of crap. Dead Space (last I checked) was meant to be scary. Confinement and corners, not big open fields, are what people feel more anxious towards.

Arkham Asylum was designed to be a nerdfest playground. "OMG I get to be batman and beat up every batman bad guy" was the point of the game and the best way to do it in the batman universe was at Arkham Asylum. (Not bashing Batman:AA, I loved the game, just stating what it is)

I'm by no means a 360 fanboy, I use both systems equally. I just think that this line of reasoning in your post was pulled right out of your ass.

Ok back up a tad. I did not mean to imply that devs are being "forced indoors" in any way. It's simply a design decision that's in vogue because it allows you to have your cake and eat it too. It allows you to actually add graphical features that you would have to waste on draw distance. I'm sure you're correct with Dead Space -- it's in space so there is little alternative to being indoors, but Arkham Asylum is another matter. When I think of Batman I associate him with Gotham CITY. You'd think that a Batman game, coming off the heels of how many movies set in a CITY, would per chance, be set in a CITY. Instead, it's a corridor brawler. Alright. It works, fun game and all but it makes me raise an eyebrow. In fact, a statistically unlikely percentage of high-profile games on the 360 are corridor shooters. No doubt it's a trend, but it's a chicken and egg quandry. Did the hardware limitation necessitate it or does it just play to the advantage of the console that this happens to be popular?

[Dome]

Ok back up a tad. I did not mean to imply that devs are being "forced indoors" in any way. It's simply a design decision that's in vogue because it allows you to have your cake and eat it too. It allows you to actually add graphical features that you would have to waste on draw distance. I'm sure you're correct with Dead Space -- it's in space so there is little alternative to being indoors, but Arkham Asylum is another matter. When I think of Batman I associate him with Gotham CITY. You'd think that a Batman game, coming off the heels of how many movies set in a CITY, would per chance, be set in a CITY. Instead, it's a corridor brawler. Alright. It works, fun game and all but it makes me raise an eyebrow. In fact, a statistically unlikely percentage of high-profile games on the 360 are corridor shooters. No doubt it's a trend, but it's a chicken and egg quandry. Did the hardware limitation necessitate it or does it just play to the advantage of the console that this happens to be popular?

the last thing i want from a batman game is to feel like i'm in a spider-man game. besides the graphics, being indoors is perfect for batman. indoors is where batman gets to sneak around, use the environment, etc. as far as too many games being corridor shooters lets see...halo? plenty of levels inside and outside. Gears of war? plenty of open, wide, epic shots (riding the grindlift, most horde maps) ninja gaiden? army of two? Fallout 3? i'm just going through some of my games and trying to figure out ones that feel like they've confined themselves inside.

more games being outside is just more boring ass games. Spider-man, tons of buildings, lots of time outside...boring as shit! it's got its appeal, sure, but really the buildings are just pointless. for spiderman, he needs to be outside, but for batman, he's an inside creature. stick to the shadows, take em down quick and quiet.

[Jerome36]

Gotta keep up with the latest PS3 engines? Sorry, too lazy to read the thread.

I doubt it. In fact aren't some PS3 games guilty of the same thing? I thought I heard a few did the same thing as Halo 3, and that they were below 720p and are then scaled up. Either way, I always thought it was funny when the 360 launched Sony said something like "true HD gaming" wouldn't be coming until their PS3 released. Up to this point both consoles have been relatively the same.

[Staples]

Terrible idea

Hopefully we don't go back to 720x480 but I am sure there will be some if not many games that are since MS seems to have no interest in holding them to a high standard. So much for that HD Era crap.

[Technoob]

Terrible idea

Hopefully we don't go back to 720x480 but I am sure there will be some if not many games that are since MS seems to have no interest in holding them to a high standard. So much for that HD Era crap.

oh god here we go again....

[Rash]

i heard the wii is going down to 320x240 for the new intensive games!!

[Technoob]

i heard the wii is going down to 320x240 for the new intensive games!!

Don't you mean "up to"?

:D

[TomGreen321]

AA? what 360 game has AA?

Most 360 games use atleast 2x, some 4x.

Also resolution isn't that big of a deal too me, if it were I would buy a PC. Although I do prefer if a game is atleast 720p as the clarity is noticeable.

[Spewn]

It's like going to applebees and bitching up a storm that you're not getting a good steak. Don't go there then.

Actually, if the box says one thing and you get something else, it's rather more like ordering a Ribeye and getting Sirloin. You're right, I should go somewhere else if that happens, but that's because Applebees sucks if they do that. What's wrong with saying the same thing about games that falsely advertise their features?

Where do you get these ideas? Somehow it's ok to deceive people because you don't personally mind? :rolleyes:

[Technoob]

Actually, if the box says one thing and you get something else, it's rather more like ordering a Ribeye and getting Sirloin. You're right, I should go somewhere else if that happens, but that's because Applebees sucks if they do that. What's wrong with saying the same thing about games that falsely advertise their features?

Where do you get these ideas? Somehow it's ok to deceive people because you don't personally mind? :rolleyes:

Where on the box does it say "renders natively at 720p?" It says 720p and in most cases, 1080p. Do you think sony is scamming its customers because MGS4 says 1080p on the box? What about GT prologue that runs at 1280X1080, rather than 1920X1080? Omg, they are liars because it's not true 1080.

The fact is, the 360 at least has an upscaler that displays images in the resolutions that it says on the box, and therefore you're wrong.

[Psychotext]

Aye... it's really not about the technical detail (seriously, maybe 2% of buyers would care), it's about knowing if it'll display properly on your TV. Same goes for the audio stuff on the back of boxes.

[Tigerblade]

I'm sorry but if a game is good then gfx/resolution takes a back seat. Case in point Ghostbusters PS3 (altho it has been patched now I hear). Yes it's nice to see crisp hi def visuals but gameplay first and foremost please.

[YeuEmMaiMai]

3 minutes after that news item was broke, no one gave a crap since the standard was not being enforced to a large degree any way

[sirsnits]

the next generation of consoles will have full HD as a standard.

this generation of consoles is just a breakthrough for the beginning of the HD interactive/entertainment world.

[YeuEmMaiMai]

Even todays' most advanved gfx chips cannot run all games at full 1080p with anti alasing and ansio enabled........and you can be rest assured that MS and Sony and Nintendo are hard at work making their next systems

[Technoob]

Even todays' most advanved gfx chips cannot run all games at full 1080p with anti alasing and ansio enabled........and you can be rest assured that MS and Sony and Nintendo are hard at work making their next systems

which will be underpowered from day one compared to pc gaming, still.

[jonneymendoza]

which will be underpowered from day one compared to pc gaming, still.

Yup and more like intel, amd, ati and nvidia are hard at work making the hardware not sony, nintendo and MS

[MiG31_Foxhound]

Even todays' most advanved gfx chips cannot run all games at full 1080p with anti alasing and ansio enabled........and you can be rest assured that MS and Sony and Nintendo are hard at work making their next systems

Wrong. Running only one of my cards (since I'm sure you are speaking about lone chips, not SLI setups) I could easily crank Farcry 2 with AA and AF at 1920x1080, as well as Mirror's Edge w/o physics (gotta be fair and turn that off since the consoles don't have it), Assassin's Creed, DMC4, and pretty much anything built on UE3. Now, take in mind these are things I could max out if I so chose. Simply running games at 1080p with AA and AF is nothing, if you're willing to accept dips in framerate comperable to that seen on the consoles. About the only things that challenge PC hardware, not surprisingly, are PC exclusives.

[jonneymendoza]

Wrong. Running only one of my cards (since I'm sure you are speaking about lone chips, not SLI setups) I could easily crank Farcry 2 with AA and AF at 1920x1080, as well as Mirror's Edge w/o physics (gotta be fair and turn that off since the consoles don't have it), Assassin's Creed, DMC4, and pretty much anything built on UE3. Now, take in mind these are things I could max out if I so chose. Simply running games at 1080p with AA and AF is nothing, if you're willing to accept dips in framerate comperable to that seen on the consoles. About the only things that challenge PC hardware, not surprisingly, are PC exclusives.

No sorry your wrong. try running Arma 2, crysis and GTA4 at 1080p with every settings maxed out.

[MorgothPl]

Does it mean, that games will now look as shitty as Fable 2? :)

[Tudz]

This is no real big news since console games all use crappy resolution anyway. I think high resoilution is pretty important, which is one of the things I like about PC games. Its a shame consoles can't keep up with HD resolutions, but I know its a pipe dream for this generation, I'm hoping next generation will bring up the requirement for mandatory 1080p on all new games.

[YeuEmMaiMai]

Wrong. Running only one of my cards (since I'm sure you are speaking about lone chips, not SLI setups) I could easily crank Farcry 2 with AA and AF at 1920x1080, as well as Mirror's Edge w/o physics (gotta be fair and turn that off since the consoles don't have it), Assassin's Creed, DMC4, and pretty much anything built on UE3. Now, take in mind these are things I could max out if I so chose. Simply running games at 1080p with AA and AF is nothing, if you're willing to accept dips in framerate comperable to that seen on the consoles. About the only things that challenge PC hardware, not surprisingly, are PC exclusives.

Before you talk abouit something, please by all means read what you are replying to. I said graphics chips, not graphic cards (not to mention 'all games") as I understand that there are graphics cards out there with multiple chips on them.

A single ATi chip cannot runn everything at 1080p and neither can nVidia........unlike PCs console HAVE TO run with the eye candy enabled otherwise you get the nutjobs screaming "[insert game title here] LOOKS LIKE ASS!"


Consoles are being developed by all 3 with a set spefications in mind based on today's current standards (or near prime time tech) and I would be totally suprised if a next gen console used more than 1 gfx chip as using multiple chips means way more cost (has anyone implimented a multiple chip solution that uses shared memory?) Matter of fact, consoles try to get as much onto one peice of silicon as possible in order to KEEP THE COST DOWN....no one is ever gonna pay $1K for a console in the forseeable future

[jonneymendoza]

Before you talk abouit something, please by all means read what you are replying to. I said graphics chips, not graphic cards (not to mention 'all games") as I understand that there are graphics cards out there with multiple chips on them.

A single ATi chip cannot runn everything at 1080p and neither can nVidia........unlike PCs console HAVE TO run with the eye candy enabled otherwise you get the nutjobs screaming "[insert game title here] LOOKS LIKE ASS!"


Consoles are being developed by all 3 with a set spefications in mind based on today's current standards (or near prime time tech) and I would be totally suprised if a next gen console used more than 1 gfx chip as using multiple chips means way more cost (has anyone implimented a multiple chip solution that uses shared memory?) Matter of fact, consoles try to get as much onto one peice of silicon as possible in order to KEEP THE COST DOWN....no one is ever gonna pay $1K for a console in the forseeable future


If there is a demand for consoles then it doesnt matter what price it is. if sony and ms both dont spport 360 and ps3 when their next console comes out cost 1k, it will still selll like hot candy.

[PS3]

This thread has sparked some serious "Nerd Rage."

Bah, most of the millions of people that play the 360 or ps3 don't notice what resolution they are playing in. They just play, and I suggest you all do the same. Graphics aint everything.

[Technoob]

No sorry your wrong. try running Arma 2, .

Yeah but who would want to run that buggy, ugly piece of shit :p

[MetalX]

Before you talk abouit something, please by all means read what you are replying to. I said graphics chips, not graphic cards (not to mention 'all games") as I understand that there are graphics cards out there with multiple chips on them.

A single ATi chip cannot runn everything at 1080p and neither can nVidia........unlike PCs console HAVE TO run with the eye candy enabled otherwise you get the nutjobs screaming "[insert game title here] LOOKS LIKE ASS!"


Consoles are being developed by all 3 with a set spefications in mind based on today's current standards (or near prime time tech) and I would be totally suprised if a next gen console used more than 1 gfx chip as using multiple chips means way more cost (has anyone implimented a multiple chip solution that uses shared memory?) Matter of fact, consoles try to get as much onto one peice of silicon as possible in order to KEEP THE COST DOWN....no one is ever gonna pay $1K for a console in the forseeable future

Holy crap so much nonsense in one post. A lot of manufacturers like ATI with the HD 48xx series and the PS3 use multiple cheaper co-processors to save costs. In the case of the 360 the multiple processors use UMA meaning they share the memory across the architecture.

[YeuEmMaiMai]

Holy crap so much nonsense in one post. A lot of manufacturers like ATI with the HD 48xx series and the PS3 use multiple cheaper co-processors to save costs. In the case of the 360 the multiple processors use UMA meaning they share the memory across the architecture.

want to name the multiple processors?

on the 360 there are 2 major components, the CPU and GPU, same for the PS3

[MetalX]

The PS3 offers developers 6 Synergistic Processing Elements commonly used for sound, AI, or physics as co-processors in addition to the main CPU. These are offered so they could use a slower/cheaper CPU. The 360 uses a triple core CPU clocked slower than a much faster single core would be in order to improve yields and control costs. The 360 GPU actually has 2 dies, one for the Xenos chip and one for its eDram.

Parallel processing is exactly where consoles are going.

[Staples]

which will be underpowered from day one compared to pc gaming, still.

The consoles may be underpowered compared to PCs on day one but since development make their games for one specific platform, they are able to achieve a lot more efficiency from them and because of that, the games on the Xbox 360 looked better than they did on PC for 6 months.

[Draax]

It's pretty obvious. The xbox is having difficulty playing modern titles at acceptable framerates without sacrificing image quality, or vice versa. You don't need to go fanboy rabid and argue it because the proof is at the very top of this thread. GTA4 happens to be the worst offender, with framerate dropping into the teens frequently enough to be distracting. However, lots of others have been showing signs, such as mangled, blurry textures (Bioshock.) Developers have even noticed the handwriting on the walls and are trying to develop games centered on indoor gameplay to try to maintain IQ and framerate (Dead Space, Batman: AA) If you don't care to acknowledge it, that's quite alright. I play most of my games on the PC anyway so it's no skin off my back. I just feel bad that MS is maintaining the relevence of its hardware moving forward when such a strategy is obviously detrimental to those gamers who claim that they desire graphical complexity in new games.

I have never noticed this issue in GTA4 that you speak of. Batman renders outdoor environments just fine. As soon as you complete the tutorial levels you walk outside (outdoor environment) and you see the entirety of Arkham asylum with the city in the background.

[Technoob]

want to name the multiple processors?

on the 360 there are 2 major components, the CPU and GPU, same for the PS3

lol, dude.....

[MiG31_Foxhound]

No sorry your wrong. try running Arma 2, crysis and GTA4 at 1080p with every settings maxed out.

GTAIV's quality of build, from the ground up, is fundamentally unsound. It can not even utilize AA, and it somehow can not make full use of two monsterously powerful graphics cards. I did not feel it was fair to include it, just as I felt it was not fair to include PC excusives such as ARMA and Crysis, for which there is no console version to compare. If you wish to take the kiddie gloves off, then I'll happily oblige. I can't max GTAIV, but what I can do is turn the settings up to rougly equal to or greater than the consoles, set the res to 1080p and achieve a pretty consistently high framerate. Can't max out ARMA or Crysis, even with both of the cards in my rig, but without this relationship of games pushing the envelope on the PC, the RSX and Xenos wouldn't have the power they do. You're welcome.

Before you talk abouit something, please by all means read what you are replying to. I said graphics chips, not graphic cards

Ah ya got me. Chips are pretty useless without RAM, a coprocessor such as a CPU, a cooling solution, and interface to whatever system they're in... Guess we're both shit out of luck because our "gfx chips" can't handle anything. :rolleyes:

I have never noticed this issue in GTA4 that you speak of. Batman renders outdoor environments just fine. As soon as you complete the tutorial levels you walk outside (outdoor environment) and you see the entirety of Arkham asylum with the city in the background.

I can't illustrate the issue in any empirical way due to the lack of any benchmark tool, but I recall grimacing every time I saw a commercial for the game because it looked like a slideshow. My girlfriend wanted it so we purchased it for the 360 and framerate issues were one of the reasons I quit playing it, in addition to the obnoxiously small text that was nearly illegible on an SDTV. I suppose I could have hooked it up to my monitor but I instead purchased the PC version. What one sees isn't always what another does, however, so you may never notice significant slowdown.

As to Batman: AA, I'm happy to know that it doesn't keep you inside forever. I'll admit I only played the demo because I'm anxiously awaiting the PC release. As many here have said, graphics aren't everything and it's nice to see a game that's fun to play, aesthetically vivid, and immersive as well as graphically impressive.

[theNoid]

This thread has sparked some serious "Nerd Rage."

Bah, most of the millions of people that play the 360 or ps3 don't notice what resolution they are playing in. They just play, and I suggest you all do the same. Graphics aint everything.

Pretty much this. COD4 and Halo 3 were all sub 720p. I don't hear anyone complaining.

[MetalX]

Pretty much this. COD4 and Halo 3 were all sub 720p. I don't hear anyone complaining.

I can see both of your arguments "that ignorance is bliss" but I'll leave that philosophy to the ignorant. If even a laymen saw Halo3 at its current res and was able to see it a 720p right beside they would certainly appreciate the difference.

[uss enterprise]

My take on it is it's another way to slightly increase the longevity of the 360, albiet at a cost. Although, graphics are not the be all end all. I do love my HD gaming, but I was playing exile and exile 2 on the TurboDuo the other night, was just as fun. And of course, the graphics by today's standards suck.
A game is only as fun as the game is, quality graphics or HD graphics or lack thereof notwithstanding.

[Satarel]

This will probably help with the Project Natal games. I'm guessing that played a larger roll in the dropping of this requirement. Since I imagine there will be quite a few Wii like games that are sorley lacking in the graphics department but are fun regardless. All speculation of course but another possible reason for this decision.

[jonneymendoza]

COD5 on the 360 definitely doesn't have any AA. i just put it on and had a blast fuck me it is one mother fucking ugly pile of shit of a game!!!

[Technoob]

COD5 on the 360 definitely doesn't have any AA. i just put it on and had a blast fuck me it is one mother fucking ugly pile of shit of a game!!!

Not true. Cod5 on the 360 is 1024/600 with 2x AA.

[jonneymendoza]

Not true. Cod5 on the 360 is 1024/600 with 2x AA.

sorry but thats bullshit. i have just come off playing it(gamertag = pinoy soldier) and there is no AA at all and it looks ugly! i hope MW2 doesnt look like that

[Psychotext]

sorry but thats bullshit. i have just come off playing it(gamertag = pinoy soldier) and there is no AA at all and it looks ugly! i hope MW2 doesnt look like that

Call of Duty 4 = 1024x600 (2xAA)
Call of Duty: World at War = 1024x600 (2x AA)
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=46241

[Technoob]

sorry but thats bullshit. i have just come off playing it(gamertag = pinoy soldier) and there is no AA at all and it looks ugly! i hope MW2 doesnt look like that

Do you always enjoy being wrong? You've based your analysis on what, your expert eye? If I hadn't just told you, I bet you could have told us the native resolution too :rolleyes:

[Stereophile]

Do you still think the next gen PS4 and X720 will have weaker GPUs than a GTX 295 ? :rolleyes:

It's funny to look back and think about all the misinformation on the X360's hw. I remember when people actually thought there was "free" AA. I remember people arguing BD would never offer a real world advantage over DVD for gaming this generation.

Talk about getting wrong.

The X360 is beginning to show its age. The hw is simple, "PC like" to program, so the majority of its developers aren't coding on a low level. The auto scheduler on the unified GPU makes it easy to have graphics efficiency. There is probably a bit more left, consoles are never totally maxed out, but it won't get pushed as hard due to direct x environment. PS3 developers were thrown into the deep end. It takes programming skill, but the reason PS3 is continuing to improve by leaps and bounds with each successive software generation, is the Cell BE.

After Uncharted came out, Naughty Dog said their next engines could be calculating 3x the information. They recently characterized the upgrade from Uncharted engine to Uncharted 2 as if is running on a new console. Watching the HD Uncharted2 previews, I don't think that's an exaggeration.

MS has always allowed key titles to ignore the 720p requirement, but this official pronouncement seems like a green light for low budget development. I agree with the idea Natal will usher in a new wave of Wii type family games.

[Technoob]

Do you still think the next gen PS4 and X720 will have weaker GPUs than a GTX 295 ? :rolleyes:

It's funny to look back and think about all the misinformation on the X360's hw. I remember when people actually thought there was "free" AA. I remember people arguing BD would never offer a real world advantage over DVD for gaming this generation.

Talk about getting wrong.

The X360 is beginning to show its age. The hw is simple, "PC like" to program, so the majority of its developers aren't coding on a low level. The auto scheduler on the unified GPU makes it easy to have graphics efficiency. There is probably a bit more left, consoles are never totally maxed out, but it won't get pushed as hard due to direct x environment. PS3 developers were thrown into the deep end. It takes programming skill, but the reason PS3 is continuing to improve by leaps and bounds with each successive software generation, is the Cell BE.

After Uncharted came out, Naughty Dog said their next engines could be calculating 3x the information. They recently characterized the upgrade from Uncharted engine to Uncharted 2 as if is running on a new console. Watching the HD Uncharted2 previews, I don't think that's an exaggeration.

MS has always allowed key titles to ignore the 720p requirement, but this official pronouncement seems like a green light for low budget development. I agree with the idea Natal will usher in a new wave of Wii type family games.

I suppose all the sub 720 games on the ps3 are just explained by lazy devs right?

You're nothing if not predictable, friend.

[Crighton]

I suppose all the sub 720 games on the ps3 are just explained by lazy devs right?

You're nothing if not predictable, friend.

you cal him friend but somehow I just don't believe you :D

[YeuEmMaiMai]

lol, dude.....

well where are exactly are the muiltiple GPUs on each console?

You guys are nuts if you think that they are going to spend a cent more than they have to when they design the next console...note I said 2 major components.

here is the board, note only 1 GPU present

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20051129/111162/xbox360main_omote.jpg

PS3

again note only 1 GPU present

http://media.ps3scene.com/images/PS3-motherboard-PAL/PS3_motherboard_7.JPG

[Netrat33]

Do you always enjoy being wrong? You've based your analysis on what, your expert eye? If I hadn't just told you, I bet you could have told us the native resolution too :rolleyes:

And this is what it all ultimately comes down to. Unless you are pixel counting, so many people's argument is so much bullshit. "I KNOW it's not at the right resolution"

Ignorance is bliss. Yea...it is. Better than nitpicky whiny enlightenment.

[MetalX]

Acceptance is the first step to recovery Netrat, we're here for you.

[jonneymendoza]

Do you always enjoy being wrong? You've based your analysis on what, your expert eye? If I hadn't just told you, I bet you could have told us the native resolution too :rolleyes:

Do you enjoy being an annoying person? links dont mean a thing when the game looks like an asshole. maybe its the res thats poor and gives the impression that it doesnt have any AA because it still looks like there is no AA in it

[Netrat33]

Acceptance is the first step to recovery Netrat, we're here for you.

WHHHYY Thank you! ;)

I game primarily on my PC, but do enjoy my console experiences too.

[Technoob]

Do you enjoy being an annoying person? links dont mean a thing when the game looks like an asshole. maybe its the res thats poor and gives the impression that it doesnt have any AA because it still looks like there is no AA in it

You tend to make shit up all the time on these forums, so it shouldn't be too surprising by now when someone corrects you. The fact is you're wrong, don't get mad at me that you said it.