Mac OS X Flaws...Need Your Opinions? [Archive]

{NcsO}ReichstaG

02-01-2009, 05:11 AM

My friend decided to give Mac a try last summer to access features such as the Unix shell and applications like Textmate. After 6 months of using it ,however, some flaws (especially in the UI) just became too apparent and he decided to switch to Windows7 at least for now.

We decided to compile a list of these flaws that we cannot just disregard, and posted them at :http://www.xflaws.com/2009/01/mac-os-x-is-not-user-friendly-these_27.html

Here is a short excerpt:
There is no cut: There is no "cut" option like in all other OS. So to move a file you have navigate to the destination in a separate Finder window and drag to it, or drag while navigating in the same Finder window through many folders and hope you don't miss.

So what do you guys think? Are there any fixes to these problems? (...and please don't say, "Who needs to cut and paste files...")

Joe Average

02-01-2009, 05:27 AM

Honestly, this is just asking to be locked... there have been so many attempts at useful "discussion" about comparing OSes in this way over the years, and not one of them ever ended gracefully...

The majority of the "issues" I just noted in that linked article/blog entry are more akin to personal wants, and not an overall idea of "better usability" for everyone. I mean, this one point alone:

1440x900 for 15.4" is not! It should be at least 1680x1050, preferrably 1920x1200.

is utterly ludicrous. Most people find 1440x900 perfectly acceptable for a 15.4" LCD - 1680x1050 is actually pushing the usability for a lot of people at that screen size, and 1920x1200 on a 15.4" (while technically possible and available) would require most people to be wearing magnifying glasses to be "usable." That is a personally motivated point of contention - the person writing it decided to say "Hey, I think this LCD should be higher resolution because <insert personal desires here>..." and that negates it, immediately.

I'll make it simple and blunt for you:

Go grab Linux From Scratch, and create the OS you folks seems to want. You can make it do anything your little hearts desire, honestly. It just takes some work. But as OSX is an Apple product, just as Windows is a Microsoft product, and they are written for a reason that nobody outside of those companies can or ever will fully fathom, the only way you're ever going to get your own custom perfect OS is to do it yourself, period.

Don't want Linux? Fine, try the code that actually lies at the heart of OSX itself:

Darwin. (http://developer.apple.com/Darwin/)

Of course it's been effectively "dead" for a little over 2 years now, but there it is, source and even some compiled binaries, ready to roll.

So, when do you folks think I'll get a chance to check out OSXTRW... OSX, The Right Way... ? :D

anss123

02-01-2009, 08:30 AM

We decided to compile a list of these flaws that we cannot just disregard, and posted them at :http://www.xflaws.com/2009/01/mac-os-x-is-not-user-friendly-these_27.html
Never used OSX but some of those points seems like excessive nit picking. "iPhoto can only be used for photos", "cannot disable trash", "calculator syntax", "smart folders" (what is that?).

That you can't customize the OS has been a Mac feature from version 1.0. It's the way it's "suppose to be", and considering how many users actually customize their OS it's hard not to agree with that choice.

Joe Average

02-01-2009, 08:44 AM

Never used OSX but some of those points seems like excessive nit picking. "iPhoto can only be used for photos", "cannot disable trash", "calculator syntax", "smart folders" (what is that?).

That you can't customize the OS has been a Mac feature from version 1.0. It's the way it's "suppose to be", and considering how many users actually customize their OS it's hard not to agree with that choice.

Absolutely agreed. The entire idea of the "Cult of Mac" - and why it's got that nickname - is the idea of everything being the same to make it easier. If the OP had been a Mac owner from day one and running Mac OS ever since, he/she/it would have been well "into" the whole thing from the gitgo. But, if you're a Windows user, have been one for a long time (seems like forever for me, since before it even hit retail shelves so long ago), trying to use OSX is a bit unwieldy at first.

But the entire idea of modifying the GUI, or how the OS works from the factory defaults is actually highly frowned upon by Apple personnel, especially the tech support. They are sitting at a machine and have the knowledge base to pull data from, but a good tech will need to visualize in their head what they'd be seeing if they were sitting at your PC while you explained the problem.

If you've altered the factory defaults and set your OS up in a way that's more comfortable or useful for YOU that's fine, but to the tech it's a nightmare just waiting to happen because a) you probably won't reveal all the alterations you've made and b) the tech can't visualize it since when they tell you something your first reaction is "Well, I don't have mine set up that way."

To be honest, in many respects the "Cult of Mac" philosophy can be broken down into a three word phrase I originated around here about Vista in the summer of 2006...

Leave it alone.

Because that's exactly what Apple wants - they want you all using a machine that looks like the guy next door, or the kid across the street, or that girl at Starbucks working on her college thesis with her Macbook while the guy sitting across from her on his Macbook Pro plays a game.

Windows is no different, really. Microsoft doesn't want people really seriously tinkering around with stuff most of the time. Think that's a load of horseshit? Then why hasn't Microsoft provided a tool or made it easy for just anyone to modify the msstyles theme files, etc? Why are you forced into buying a product from a company like TGTSoft to get the job done? Eh? Right... see, I can bash Microsoft just like anybody else can, I'm not "for" one over the other, as each have their places...

The reason? Because while the computers and the operating systems should be basically the same so there's at least some form of standardization, people aren't the same. We don't roll off assembly lines like robots, each of us is infinitely unique. Even twins aren't the same, yanno...

anss123

02-01-2009, 09:24 AM

but to the tech it's a nightmare just waiting to happen
Heh. I've helped people over the phone and it's frustrating enough even when you know what their looking for. "Press the button with a green arrow, pointing towards a scanner, no no a drawing of a scanner not the scanner, it's the middle of the screen - towards the top I mean...."

VNC helps greatly here.
Windows is no different, really. Microsoft doesn't want people really seriously tinkering around with stuff most of the time. Think that's a load of horseshit? Then why hasn't Microsoft provided a tool or made it easy for just anyone to modify the msstyles theme files, etc? Why are you forced into buying a product from a company like TGTSoft to get the job done? Eh? Right... see, I can bash Microsoft just like anybody else can, I'm not "for" one over the other, as each have their places...
I think MS is worrying about evil msthemes making their way across the email ways, and even if it's not evil - a badly made msstyle can probably cause subtle hard to figure out problems.

The reason? Because while the computers and the operating systems should be basically the same so there's at least some form of standardization, people aren't the same. We don't roll off assembly lines like robots, each of us is infinitely unique. Even twins aren't the same, yanno...
True true. I prefer somewhat "minimalistic" UIs others want every button under the sun, and it's impossible to please both. Good thing we got multiple choices, though some like BeOS isn't quite realistic.

heatlesssun

02-01-2009, 11:28 AM

Is there an analog to Windows 7 libraries in OS X?

Klob

02-01-2009, 12:36 PM

So what do you guys think? Are there any fixes to these problems? (...and please don't say, "Who needs to cut and paste files...")

'Drag and Drop' has always been the defacto standard noob GUI for Macs going back to the first time I used them back in 1989. I much prefer cut and paste too. Although, a neophyte to Windows wouldn't automatically think that cutting and pasting is meant for moving files instead of just cutting and pasting text in a word processor.

jimmyb

02-01-2009, 12:37 PM

All I want in an OS is a preemptive scheduler, and virtualized memory. The rest is just bloat.

Archer75

02-01-2009, 01:59 PM

Yes, the cut and paste can be annoying but I just have two finder windows open and do it that way. It doesn't bother me that much anymore. But the OS should really have a cut built in. There are ways to add it but it still never worked right.

I have used USB overdrive to correct the funky mouse movement. But I found a way around it. I lower the mouse speed in preferences and then increase the DPI directly on my mouse(logitech G7) and that fixed it.

There is an app that will completely remove apps and their preferences. I don't recall it's name though. I think's it the uninstaller or some such thing. You put the waste basket in your dock and drag apps to it, it will remove the app and it's preferences and anything else associated with it.

You can merge folders. At first I was really pissed off that when I went to do this the same way as I do in windows I lost all of my files in the original folder. What you do is select "don't replace" and it will copy in only the files that are different, thus merging the folders.

A replacement for finder is called path finder. You can do a cut and paste with only one window.

I don't know why you need to make subfolders part of your wallpapers. I have a single wallpaper folder and love how OSX can change them every so often. I'm glad windows 7 added that feature.

I guess I don't have any issues with trash. Once it's in there it's as good as gone. I don't need to selective delete nor do I need to restore.

You can mass rename with automator. It works well. Automator is a very powerful too and i've used it to do batch file conversions, rename, create folders and move data all in a single workflow. That saves a great deal of time. And you can download workflows that others have made. I would LOVE for windows to have this.

I don't use spotlight or windows search. I keep myself organized so I always know where everything is. But if I had to pick one I would take spotlight over windows search.

windows doesn't have many codecs as well. But downloading and install codecs for windows or OSX is painless. Even with the additional codecs in windows 7 there are still issues. It doesn't use direct show filters anymore so no more FFDshow. I have this on my HTPC so there was more configuration involved.

I get irritated with preview too. If I am browsing a picture folder in windows I double click the first one for preview and then navigate with the forward and back buttons. With preview in OSX you have to select all the pictures you want to preview and then open preview. You can then navigate back and forth with those pictures.
However I found a free OSX app called Xee that does the same thing as windows preview.

Really all that blog is is alot of nit picking. Most of it isn't something that has bothered me or I find a non issue.

It's important to realize that OSX is not windows and as a result doesn't do everything the same. However it does offer many things that windows does not and vice versa. I just had to adapt to a new way of doing things and once I got used to it I found I liked some things that I had originally hated and then tried to create those same things in windows. I feel like merging some of my habits in windows with my habits in OSX I have become more efficient.

AbJ32

02-01-2009, 02:11 PM

1440x900 for 15.4" is not! It should be at least 1680x1050, preferrably 1920x1200.

As somebody with 20/14 vision, I think it's safe to say that if anybody is going to have trouble using a PC because the resolution is too high, it's probably not going to be me. However, at 1920x1200, I think I'd have a bit of a struggle reading text on a 15.4" screen. 1680x1050 is probably a bit much, as well. Since most people don't have my eyesight, I have to say it's completely ridiculous to expect such a thing, since most people would have difficulty using it.

anss123

02-01-2009, 02:25 PM

As somebody with 20/14 vision, I think it's safe to say that if anybody is going to have trouble using a PC because the resolution is too high, it's probably not going to be me. However, at 1920x1200, I think I'd have a bit of a struggle reading text on a 15.4" screen. 1680x1050 is probably a bit much, as well. Since most people don't have my eyesight, I have to say it's completely ridiculous to expect such a thing, since most people would have difficulty using it.A 15.4" monitor with 1920x1200 has a DPI of 150. Might sound impressive but that's still half of what you get with a laser printer.

As you might have noticed you don't have any trouble reading printed paper, and the same is true for a small 1920x1200 monitor - if the OS supported resolution independence that is :)

eggrock

02-01-2009, 03:15 PM

Has OS (whatever) added in keyboard shortcuts? Best decision MS ever made was to favor keyboard commands for everything. You can use the GUI and a mouse but if you take the time to learn keyboard shortcuts it can be a huge timesaver.

The only keyboard commads on Macs I ever knew had to do with rebuilding the desktop and a few other commands that I don't remember (Apple+Option+Delete+Shift?)

Terpfen

02-01-2009, 05:02 PM

heatlesssun

02-01-2009, 05:37 PM

A good number of flaws in the OP's article are the result of expecting OS X to behave like Windows. OS X is not Windows. There are different assumptions that go into its structure and user interface. You cannot expect Windows concepts to totally carry over to OS X, and vice-versa. Imagine the litany of complaints a lifelong Mac user could generate if he switched to Windows!

This "it doesn't work exactly like Windows, therefore it's broken" attitude is most evident in the complaints about OS X's trash. There's no selective trash delete? Well, why would you want the trash to selectively delete? If a file is in the trash, that means you want to get rid of it. If you want to hang on to it for a while longer, why did you dump it in the trash in the first place? Also, the complaint about being unable to restore from the trash is bogus: merely drag the file or files out of the trash, and voila, restored.

Further evidence of this phenomenon appears in the "Finder is Broken" section. The article complains that there's no Cut function in Finder, yet Command + X works just fine. It goes on to complain about "bad selection of shortcuts," when what the author really means is "the shortcuts aren't exactly like Windows' shortcuts," and no mention is made of OS X allowing the user to completely remap every keyboard shortcut to the user's preferences.

To the OP: OS X is far from perfect. However, your complaints are not a legitimate list of flaws, but rather a list of Windows behaviors that you irrationally expected to precisely carry over to OS X. When you claim that "OS X is not user friendly!" you are really claiming "it doesn't duplicate Windows!" This would be the point of OS X. If Apple wanted to duplicate Windows, then Macs would ship with Vista pre-installed.

Junk from beginning to end. Borderline FUD, even.

I 100% agree. Your argument would apply with just about any OS comparison. Being a life long Windows guy who thinks that Windows works well, I do see the OP's point. OS X just doesn't work for me and probably never will. But as your argument goes the same could be said for a life long Mac user coming to Windows.

At the end of the day OS'es are not a zero sum game and I tire of arguments from all camps claiming one OS'es superiority of another. All have their strengths and weaknesses.

But I truly tire of the anti-Microsoft crowd that everyday spouts about all the problems of Windows and can never find the faults with their favorite. As soon as a Mac or Linux guy start telling me how much I can benefit from another OS by switching full time I'm done. If there's something another platform has that I need and can't do in Windows I'll just ADD that platform to my list.

I love Windows. It works very well for me. It's safe and secure if you're not an idiot. And it plays a lot of cool games! That doesn't mean OS X sucks. Some people love is almost as much much love Windows!:p

IRTxert

02-01-2009, 05:47 PM

Further evidence of this phenomenon appears in the "Finder is Broken" section. The article complains that there's no Cut function in Finder, yet Command + X works just fine.

Common misunderstanding. Command-X only works on text, not files in Finder. Please get your facts clear.

It's not just about getting used to the OS X way, or even about customizing the OS. You simply can't do some basic things in OS X, period.

Yes, most of things you do in windows, you can in OS X, in a different way. But many times that way requires more clicks, more keystrokes. What is FUD is saying any flaw of OS X can be explained by "it's just different from windows and you simply won't understand", without providing evidence why the OS X way is more efficient. Given the amount of details in OP's link, we can probably assume that if there is an equivalent way to do something in OS X, he would have found it.

The point about the trash is valid. Trash acts as a buffer, that's the whole point, so you don't delete files by accident. If you delete a file by accident, you would want it to be restored to the ORIGINAL folder, even if you don't remember it.

Why would you want selective delete? The article explains it. If the only purpose of trash is to get rid of files you don't want, might as well not have it.

AbJ32

02-01-2009, 06:14 PM

A 15.4" monitor with 1920x1200 has a DPI of 150. Might sound impressive but that's still half of what you get with a laser printer.

As you might have noticed you don't have any trouble reading printed paper, and the same is true for a small 1920x1200 monitor - if the OS supported resolution independence that is :)

I'm not sure you can make a direct comparison, since what goes on the printer paper isn't meant for poster board. When I print something out on my printer, the font is roughly the same size as it is on my 1024x768 15" LCD, and 1024x768 is a lot smaller than 1920x1200.

Most text is 12 point font, or something roughly similar in size. It's meant for larger monitors with smaller resolutions. If you maintain the size of the screen, the size of the text gets much much smaller, to the point that a lot of people will have difficulty reading it. Since most 1920x1200 monitors are 24" or larger (More often larger than not), shrinking the image down to fit a 15.4" screen is probably going to make the text too small to read.

I imagine most people would have to turn on Large DPI Scaling in order to get just a bare-minimum amount of readability out of a display like that at such a high resolution.

Terpfen

02-01-2009, 06:46 PM

Common misunderstanding. Command-X only works on text, not files in Finder. Please get your facts clear.

This is true, and I misunderstood that section of the article. Correction accepted. Snootiness not accepted.

It's not just about getting used to the OS X way, or even about customizing the OS. You simply can't do some basic things in OS X, period.

No, most of the complaints in OP's article originate with an expectation that a command behave in OS X the same way it does in Windows.

What is FUD is saying any flaw of OS X can be explained by "it's just different from windows and you simply won't understand", without providing evidence why the OS X way is more efficient.

It's not FUD to say that most of the OP's complaints boil down to "it's not like Windows." FUD is saying "it's not like Windows, therefore it's crippled in comparison and sucks," which is the overall point of the article.

If you delete a file by accident, you would want it to be restored to the ORIGINAL folder, even if you don't remember it.

Not necessarily. This is a pretty big assumption about user intentions, and it's also another expectation carry-over from Windows.

Why would you want selective delete? The article explains it.

And I rejected its explanation. Again: if you put it in the trash, it's because you don't want it anymore. To use a real-life comparison with real-life trash, this is like complaining that when removing your trash liner, your empty water bottles don't fall through the liner and remain in the trash bin. Selective delete does not jive with the trash bin metaphor.

Strolls

02-01-2009, 07:37 PM

There's stuff on the original blog that's extremely valid, IMO, and some that shows the writer is just "not getting it".

I could spend hours adding to this conversation & critiquing the original blog, but it would be a waste of time because Steve Jobs doesn't listen to me. :(

The comments that spring most readily to mind:

Select multiple files & Apple-Alt-i.
The way you hold Alt on Windows and the underlines graphically show you the keystrokes to the shortcut is FAR better than Apple's keyboard shortcuts - that is well overdue for review.
Spotlight DOES suck - I can't believe that 10.5 brought no improvements; it's great to be able to Apple-space and just find stuff, but complex searches are DESPERATELY needed (and unavailable) when it's not in the top 10 or 20 results.

IRTxert

02-01-2009, 07:39 PM

No, most of the complaints in OP's article originate with an expectation that a command behave in OS X the same way it does in Windows.

Some, maybe. Others are valid. For example, you cannot create a file with the Finder menu. It's not expecting OS X to behave like windows. It's something every OS has, even linux. Tell me a quicker way to do this in OS X than in Windows. And if you seriously cannot see any uses for it.. well there are plenty...you can ask me again.

It's not FUD to say that most of the OP's complaints boil down to "it's not like Windows." FUD is saying "it's not like Windows, therefore it's crippled in comparison and sucks," which is the overall point of the article.

It's okay to be not like windows if the OS has a different, but at least equally efficient way to do the same thing. But sometimes it doesn't. The article has a lot of "I cannot do this", not "I can't do this the way I'm used to".

Not necessarily. This is a pretty big assumption about user intentions, and it's also another expectation carry-over from Windows.
It might be an assumption, but it can happen. Let's say you accidentally delete a file from a project. The file is naturally part of the project and it should automatically be restored to the project, not just any folder, when you undelete.

Another example comes from iTunes. If you accidentally trash a song you want from the iTunes library, to add it back you have to move it to the Desktop (or any folder) , open it in iTunes so iTunes copies it to the proper location in the library. And then you have to delete the file on the desktop because it's a duplicate. Compare this to a proper restore, where the trash just restores it to the library.

Yeah, it's different, it doesn't behave like windows, and in this case, it sucks.

So it's good to have both.

And I rejected its explanation. Again: if you put it in the trash, it's because you don't want it anymore. To use a real-life comparison with real-life trash, this is like complaining that when removing your trash liner, your empty water bottles don't fall through the liner and remain in the trash bin. Selective delete does not jive with the trash bin metaphor.
It doesn't make sense to compare trash in the OS to trash in real life. In real life it is much harder to accidentally trash something because you have to physically walk there, so you can safely assume everything in the trash should really be gone. The only reason it's not is because the garbage man didn't come.

In an OS, either you're careful and only delete what you really want to delete, in which case you don't need trash, or you're not as careful and make some mistakes, in which selective delete and proper restore is useful.

If you think it's wrong to compare Trash in OS X to Trash in Windows....well I can't even begin to tell you how wrong it is to compare Trash to real life.

[K]entor

02-01-2009, 07:50 PM

Again: if you put it in the trash, it's because you don't want it anymore.
Are you kidding me? If this is the case then why is there even a trash in the first place? Why not just skip the trash step and go straight to wiping it off the computer? Yeah no one ever make a mistake on deleting files. You're ridiculous.

heatlesssun

02-01-2009, 08:26 PM

I don't use spotlight or windows search. I keep myself organized so I always know where everything is. But if I had to pick one I would take spotlight over windows search.

It's great that you are well organized, but I never understand how people think that just by organizing files they don't need or want a comprehensive search.

Windows Search is far more powerful than even the so called experts realize. Not only can Windows Search find files, it can find data in any local or cloud based that has a search filter, which includes Word, Excel, OpenOffice and PDF files. With Outlook installed and the Outlook connector it will even search web based email like Gmail, HotMail and Yahoo mail. You don't even have to have the mail downloaded locally with these clients, the search will find it.

I use a program called OneNote, among people who know it and use its a killer app. Over the years I've built up a lot on information in that tool and when I need to find something a few key words will usually point me to what I want (there is a Windows Search filter for it). The ability to look through years of documents, email, notes in just seconds, there's simply no way that an organizational scheme can be replaced by this kind of comprehensive search. I'm not saying organization isn't a good thing, its just not a replacement for looking at years of data distributed all over the place.

[K]entor

02-01-2009, 08:37 PM

I don't use spotlight or windows search. I keep myself organized so I always know where everything is. But if I had to pick one I would take spotlight over windows search.Can you justify why you prefer spotlight over windows search? I mean you don't use either so how can you prefer something over another. I have used both and I have to agree with the OP and the guy above me.

AbJ32

02-01-2009, 09:00 PM

heatlesssun

02-01-2009, 09:12 PM

Windows Search can only be described as the Bee's Knees. You can't remember which directory you saved that file in? No matter, just type it in the search bar and it'll pop right up. I don't have to remember where to find things, because I can just type them in the search bar.

Totally agree, unfortunately its not at all simple to setup. You have to know about installing the filters and setting properties like "Search the entire" index. Microsoft needs to put a GOOD front end configuration tool, the current Indexing Options applet is extremely confusion IMHO.

alex2792

02-01-2009, 11:46 PM

Some would argue that Windows itself is a giant flaw ;)

But on a serious note the lack of cut and paste in finder is annoying. If Apple would add it in Snow Leopard I'd be jumping for joy.

heatlesssun

02-01-2009, 11:57 PM

Some would argue that Windows itself is a giant flaw ;)

I'd agree with you a lot of days until you take a cool game like Mirror's Edge and crank it up to maximum on a 1080P 120Hz 55" display and wonder how anyone can play games on a console and not feel like they're playing Space Invaders!:D

AbJ32

02-02-2009, 03:22 PM

Totally agree, unfortunately its not at all simple to setup. You have to know about installing the filters and setting properties like "Search the entire" index. Microsoft needs to put a GOOD front end configuration tool, the current Indexing Options applet is extremely confusion IMHO.

I haven't changed the default search settings at all.

heatlesssun

02-02-2009, 03:32 PM

I haven't changed the default search settings at all.

For a lot of people it wouldn't probably matter. I have my search setup for content indexing for OneNote, email, Word, Excel, PDF and some other stuff and that takes little time to get setup from the standpoint that you have to know to install filters and change some settings. It's just not obvious how to do this without some research.

IRTxert

02-02-2009, 09:51 PM

It's great that you are well organized, but I never understand how people think that just by organizing files they don't need or want a comprehensive search.

Agreed. Search is useful for quickly accessing files buried deep in the filesystem even though you know where they are. This way you don't need to have too many shortcuts on the desktop. The Vista "stack by" feature is so powerful, basically you can divide files into virtual folders based on any criteria. I'm sure a lot of people don't even know about this feature.

Strolls

02-03-2009, 01:13 AM

... Let's say you accidentally delete a file from a project. The file is naturally part of the project and it should automatically be restored to the project, not just any folder, when you undelete.
Time Machine solves this.

One problem with the Windows Recycle Bin is that - in order to retain the deleted-from-folder information - it is a single binary file, so is prone to corruption. OS X's trash is just a bunch of files in a folder. I don't know if Time Machine introduces that problem to the Mac, however.

One thing I hate about the Mac's trash is that deletion of old files isn't automated - consequently I have a 64gig Trash right now. I had an argument with a die-hard Mac fanboy once who insisted that manual emptying is right because it "follows the real-world trash paradigm" - after all, you have to manually empty the office wastepaper basket yourself. I wish I had thought then to tell him the paradigm should be changed & the Trash renamed the "Compost Heap", the oldest stuff should decompose. Seriously, we have computers to automate things - I shouldn't have to empty the trash manually just to free up space - doing so treats the recovery of files that are only one day old the same as that of files that are weeks or months old. Keeping the Trash at a certain maximum size, deleting the oldest first, is obviously FAR more sensible.

Windows Search ... You can't remember which directory you saved that file in? No matter, just type it in the search bar and it'll pop right up. I don't have to remember where to find things, because I can just type them in the search bar.
This is exactly the same as Spotlight, so you can't use that as an argument of one over the other.

It is probably very easy to argue the benefits of Windows Search (Vista / Win7) over Spotlight based on the behaviour when you have to look through many results - Spotlight handles that ABYSMALLY. But I haven't used Windows Search (apart from 2000/XP/2003) much, so I can't say for sure.

I'd agree with you a lot of days until you take a cool game like Mirror's Edge and crank it up to maximum on a 1080P 120Hz 55" display and wonder how anyone can play games on a console and not feel like they're playing Space Invaders!:D
Console gaming is all about being on the sofa & never having to worry about graphics drivers. I work with computers all day - I don't want to think about them when I'm at home. That's not only why I play console games, but also why I use a Mac.

Most of the complaints made by TFA blog, you just don't think about when you've been using Macs a year or two. That's not an excuse but things just never seem to break on MacOS; seems like on Windows I was reinstalling software or hunting down problems just about all the time. I might have had to learn slightly longer ways of doing some things, but after a while you don't notice anymore and you probably get just about as efficient; but OS X must have saved me hundreds of hours now against the time I would have spent mucking about fixing general arsey little Windows bugs. And IME little old ladies using Macs are happier than those using PCs

Stroller.

Jon55

02-03-2009, 01:40 AM

heatlesssun

02-03-2009, 02:41 AM

Console gaming is all about being on the sofa & never having to worry about graphics drivers. I work with computers all day - I don't want to think about them when I'm at home. That's not only why I play console games, but also why I use a Mac.

Most of the complaints made by TFA blog, you just don't think about when you've been using Macs a year or two. That's not an excuse but things just never seem to break on MacOS; seems like on Windows I was reinstalling software or hunting down problems just about all the time. I might have had to learn slightly longer ways of doing some things, but after a while you don't notice anymore and you probably get just about as efficient; but OS X must have saved me hundreds of hours now against the time I would have spent mucking about fixing general arsey little Windows bugs. And IME little old ladies using Macs are happier than those using PCs

Stroller.

Windows users get it from both sides. Mac users say its too complicated and Linux users say its not complicated enough!:D

Sure PC gaming is a little more complicated but its not that bad usually. I get most of my games of Steam, just download and go 90% of the time. Crank up the settings because my sig rig can handle it and pure visual bliss usually awaits. As far as drivers that's second nature to a PC gamer, not a big deal. Mac drivers get updated too though its not a manual process. Windows 7 goes a long way to make it easier. Its easier than changing wiper blades at least!

That said, playing Call of Duty World at War on something like my sig rig on a 55" 1080P screen compared to an XBox 360, well there is no comparison. The visuals are simply far superior.

As for PC problems like anything different people have different experiences. With 'good hardware and simple maintenance a Windows PC isn't fragile. When I put systems together like most of the veteran enthusiasts around here they are rock solid.

So you love your Mac and that truly awesome! It works for you and thats the point of a computer is it not?

I love my Windows machine too! I get cool games, all the software that's out there, cool tablet features (writing this post with a pen) and I rarely have any real problems. For me, it just works!:D

alex2792

02-03-2009, 09:45 AM

heatlesssun

02-03-2009, 10:09 AM

[QUOTE={NcsO}ReichstaG;1033674351]My friend decided to give Mac a try last summer to access features such as the Unix shell and applications like Textmate. After 6 months of using it ,however, some flaws (especially in the UI) just became too apparent and he decided to switch to Windows7 at least for now.

We decided to compile a list of these flaws that we cannot just disregard, and posted them at :http://www.xflaws.com/2009/01/mac-os-x-is-not-user-friendly-these_27.html

/QUOTE]

Are you Steve Ballmer in disguise lol? That list is horrible. Just about anyone can name 1000000000000 things that sucks in Windows.

here are a few

1. Spyware and trojans galore.
2. Registry is one of the worst inventions in the history of computing.
3. DLL...whoever thought this was a brillian idea should be shot

1. Mac users are not getting quite the free pass on malware they used to. No not nearly bad as Windows. At the same time with simple security measures in place on Vista its not all that easy to get hacked.

2. Yeah the registry has its problems but its much better then it used to be.

3. Once again like the registry most DLL issues are pretty well sorted out these days, just not much of problem with them with modern apps.

I'm sure Microsoft could say let do things better they would, but redesigning these things would tend to lead to all kinds of application incompatibility issues.

As much as you hear the types of criticisms if amazing how many people each day use Windows and never have any problems. It just works for the vast majority of people. If Windows were as bad as some say I know that I wouldn't be using it and loving it!:D

Joe Average

02-03-2009, 10:13 AM

here are a few

1. Spyware and trojans galore.
2. Registry is one of the worst inventions in the history of computing.
3. DLL...whoever thought this was a brillian idea should be shot

1. Nobody gives a shit about OSX.
2. Nobody gives a shit about OSX.
3. Nobody gives a shit about OSX.

And as always, if you can do it better, by all means, get off your sorry lazy opinionated ass and make the OS that you seem to think we should be running. I'll be the first one in line if you can do it, with $1,000 cash.

Until then, you're dismissed.

NEXT!!!

Mavvok

02-03-2009, 10:40 AM

1. Nobody gives a shit about OSX.
2. Nobody gives a shit about OSX.
3. Nobody gives a shit about OSX.

And as always, if you can do it better, by all means, get off your sorry lazy opinionated ass and make the OS that you seem to think we should be running. I'll be the first one in line if you can do it, with $1,000 cash.

Until then, you're dismissed.

NEXT!!!

hahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahaha....hahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahaha...hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha....

okay i'm done haha.

Joe Average

02-03-2009, 10:44 AM

hahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahaha....hahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahaha...hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha....

okay i'm done haha.

Wanna laugh even harder? I'm the guy that released the world's first generic installation DVD for OSx86 in September of 2005... go figure. ;) That should really put you on the floor considering the irony of my involvement in the OSx86 Project from the beginning, through Release1, and even now through today... funny stuff, indeed.

requiemnoise

02-03-2009, 12:30 PM

[QUOTE=alex2792;1033684866]

[QUOTE]1. Mac users are not getting quite the free pass on malware they used to. No not nearly bad as Windows. At the same time with simple security measures in place on Vista its not all that easy to get hacked.
That is true, but, OSX doesn't have issues like PC virus. They mostly get malwares through a bad warez installation. Most OSX users don't have this issue if they don't use stolen software.

2. Yeah the registry has its problems but its much better then it used to be.
Right... but the fix since 2000 was an automated incremental backups. This doesn't really fix the initial issue with the registry. MS never implemented the force hierarchal level registry editing from bad programming or from malicious developers. This isn't hard to develop.

3. Once again like the registry most DLL issues are pretty well sorted out these days, just not much of problem with them with modern apps.

There are many ways to slice a pie, but giving only the System account writable and delete mode in the system32 and making an entire copy of system32 isn't the most elegant solution.

I'm sure Microsoft could say let do things better they would, but redesigning these things would tend to lead to all kinds of application incompatibility issues.

True, but it is a time to phase them out while we move on to 64bit world. This is now or never.

As much as you hear the types of criticisms if amazing how many people each day use Windows and never have any problems. It just works for the vast majority of people. If Windows were as bad as some say I know that I wouldn't be using it and loving it!:D
Most Windows users know Windows, because that was installed on the computer when they bought it.

Also, why are we talking about OSX in the Windows forum, so people can bash it?

Joe Average

02-03-2009, 12:56 PM

Also, why are we talking about OSX in the Windows forum, so people can bash it?

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5981/thedifferenceex5.png

There is a subforum for Apple Products discussion; this is the subforum for Operating Systems discussion. Apple does create OSX, hence OSX is an Apple Product, but as it's an Operating System, it is perfectly acceptable to discuss it here. This is not a "Windows" subforum.

Stop going out of your way to be a troll, starting confrontations where none exist, or you will be reported as such.

'Nuff typed.

requiemnoise

02-03-2009, 01:02 PM

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5981/thedifferenceex5.png

There is a subforum for Apple Products discussion; this is the subforum for Operating Systems discussion. Apple does create OSX, hence OSX is an Apple Product, but as it's an Operating System, it is perfectly acceptable to discuss it here. This is not a "Windows" subforum.

Stop going out of your way to be a troll, starting confrontations where none exist, or you will be reported as such.

'Nuff typed.

Maybe, you should come down and stop flaming others. I'm not the one yelling, "your OS is a piece of shit to others." It seems like many flames are starting by you in the OS sections. This action isn't needed. Maybe, we should have a subdirectory for OSX.

heatlesssun

02-03-2009, 02:01 PM

I guess these OS discussions just don't go anywhere for most people. Most people are so convienced that there OS is the best. I love Windows. I also know that it has its issues. I also know that people tend to make more of them than real life indicates.

Malware just simply isn't a problem with simple security measures. Any knowledgeable Windows user will tell you that but for some reason people with a different bias want to say otherwise. I don't now how else to put it. Windows has security issues, we know this. But securing Windows Vista/7 against 99.99% of known attacks is as simple as

1. Keep system patched
2. Use a firewall
3. Run as an admin only when necessary
4. Use a spyware tool
5. At least do passive scans of your system on a routine basis
6. Make backups of important data at the least

Pretty much something any Mac or PC users should be doing. Even a Linux user running Windows apps should probably scan for Windows viruses. And not a sole who uses a computer shouldn't be making backups. Its common sense and while one can debate a finer point or detail here to dismiss these steps out of hand as not making you MUCH safer is merely empty rhetoric. No you're not impervious to attack using this measures, but a hell of a whole lot better than nothing at all.

As far as DLL's and the registry, fine horrible ideas that seem to be working just great in Windows 7. I mean really, *NIX is old. Windows is old. If the best minds were starting from scratch to build the best OS they could, I really doubt that either one would be the template for something new and bold.