External HDDs, SATA II and FW800?

[darkecho_]

so I am trying to decide between two bus-powered drives that I will use through FW800.

$300: 200GB SATA 16MB Cache 7200rpm
200GB OWC Mercury On-The-Go Portable FW8... (MS8US7200GB16) at OWC
(http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/MS8U7200GB16/)
$350: 200GB SATA-II 8MB Cache 7200rpm
G-TECH G-DRIVE-mini Ultra Portable FireWire and USB Storage Solutions (http://www.g-technology.com/Products/G-DRIVE-mini.cfm)

can FW800 even take advantage of the increased speed of SATA II?

The Gtech drive says SATA II but im not sure that means 3.0gbps, if it was, can firewire800 even take advantage of that ceiling?
thanks!!!

[gramarye]

May I recommend you this alternative solution?

Hard Drive Enclosure:
http://www.cooldrives.com/qucosaiienes.html

If bus-powered is a must, something like this:
http://www.cooldrives.com/usb-power-cable-mini-b.html

OR:

Since you only need 200gb, why not a laptop drive?

Hard Drive Enclosure:
http://www.cooldrives.com/2esusb20fi40.html

And add the $2.99, USB Power Cable (optional, you don't need it, since it's technically already "bus-powered")

a 200gb Laptop Hard Drive:
http://www.newegg.com/Store/SubCategory.aspx?SubCategory=380&name=Laptop-Hard-Drives

I find the looks almost comparable to the G-TECH G-Drive. It will have FW800 and eSata. From personal experience eSata is way fast. I believe the bandwith is better compared to firewire as well.

As for the hard drive, you can probably find 500gb 16mb 7200rpm cache hard drive for about $100, adding the total cost of both the enclosure I provided above and the hard drive will not only have an inexpensive end result, but also 2.5x the storage you're looking for. 200gb hard drive may be harder to find these days.(you'll fine more 250s, 320s, 500s, etc...) I make these all the time.

What is your reason for wanting 16mb cache? if it's speed, there are other factors involved in HDs other than cache.

Hope this helped you a bit.

[gramarye]

*one more note to add, all the enclosures I provided have Firewire, USB, and eSata options.

[darkecho_]

I will be using this drive to store all of my samples for music production. I have several programs that rapidly call up multi sampled instruments (drums, piano, etc...) and I want to A.) have a hard disk dedicated to them for performance reasons, and B.) keep all of that excess weight off of my system disk so i can keep it open for apps and my music/video library.

I just assumed that the cache was important, but I dont know to what degree.

Bus powered is mandatory as I frequently edit off-site and compose music whenever the inspiration hits me. I dont want to have to search for a socket.

Thanks so much for all of these suggestions, I am reading all of them right now.

[darkecho_]

i just came across this, seems like a neat drive, though I haven't found what drive it comes packaged with. 100 bucks for the drive and I could newegg a hitachi travelstar or something.

http://www.transintl.com/store/category.cfm?Category=2643&RequestTimeOut=500

[gramarye]

I will be using this drive to store all of my samples for music production. I have several programs that rapidly call up multi sampled instruments (drums, piano, etc...) and I want to A.) have a hard disk dedicated to them for performance reasons, and B.) keep all of that excess weight off of my system disk so i can keep it open for apps and my music/video library.

I just assumed that the cache was important, but I dont know to what degree.

Bus powered is mandatory as I frequently edit off-site and compose music whenever the inspiration hits me. I dont want to have to search for a socket.

Thanks so much for all of these suggestions, I am reading all of them right now.

"composing music whenever the inspiration hits me." < love it. the mobility is important. I assume this will go along with a laptop. I would totally go for something smaller than 3.5", so go for a 2.5" if possible, since they can hold up to 250gb (320gb soon). Portability of an external hard drive is pretty important, just my recommendation.

I hope to produce/compose music someday, i agree with you on "keeping the excess weight" from the system. I like to keep my things organized, even if it means a hard drive dedicated for each purpose. Meaning, all my music is in one drive, all my client work is one drive, videos, programs, etc...

the external enclosure that's bus powered looks fine, glad you're taking the external enclosure + hard drive route, instead of buying premade ones, it's cheaper/inexpensive that way. One thing that bothers me about it is the "miniXpress" logo so huge on the drive, but that's just me, haha.

Here are some cheaper solutions you can consider, however, yours is perfectly fine:

2.5" version
http://www.cooldrives.com/2alox922fi80.html ~ $80
http://www.cooldrives.com/2usb2hddenfo.html ~ $80
http://www.cooldrives.com/2sahddencosa.html ~ $80
http://www.cooldrives.com/2alox911fi40.html ~ $70
http://www.cooldrives.com/exulsl2hdden.html ~ $50
(^ not sure about bus-powered on this one)

3.5" version (if you're still considering 3.5", if not, disregard)

http://www.cooldrives.com/esata-firewire-800-enclosure-case-external.html
http://www.cooldrives.com/3alox922fi80.html
http://www.cooldrives.com/3alox911fi40.html
http://www.cooldrives.com/3usb240enhdd.html
http://www.cooldrives.com/xb3usb2800hd.html


Speed Factors, things to consider:

- Hard Drive Capacity
- Cache
- RPM
- Form factor (Sata, IDE/ATA?)
- Manufacturer (check out benchmarks of the particular hard drive if you can)

*Also, another thing you should consider, since the purpose has to do with music production, you probably would want a roaring lawnmower hard drive near the area, go for a quiet one if possible. loudness may cause too much interference.


SATA > IDE/ATA

If you can, buy a SATA hard drive, and make sure that enclosure you get is compatible (ex. SATA Hard Drive for SATA Enclosure)


What operating system are you running?

eSATA:
If you have a Mac, you might have to find esata solutions (an expensive pci-express card).
If you have a PC, make sure you have an eSATA input on your motherboard, if not buy an adapter (very inexpensive).

Firewire 800/FW800/1394b:
Mac: works well, proprietary all high-end macs have a port.
PC: Rare on a PC unless you buy your own PCI card for about $50-$125.

Firewire 400/FW400/1394:
Mac: Works very well, all Macs come with a port/
PC: According to many sources, firewire options on PCs are less these days

USB 2.0:
Probably the most universal solution.

Things to consider:
*If you have a pc, buy a pci card that has capabilities for your needs.
*Macs only take PCI-express, make sure it's compatible as well.

^I apologize in advance if this was totally confusing.

[Technically, eSATA > FW800/1394b > USB 2.0 > FW400/1394 > Ethernet > USB 1.1]

[darkecho_]

Excellent comprehensive post!! I agree about the miniXpress logo being huge, it bothers me too. but I did like the 4-interface ability..

it seems that 3.5" drives are hard or impossible to run via bus power, so I will definately stick with a 2.5" drive. also, I am pretty sure I want an SATA drive... 150 or 300 probably doesnt matter since only eSATA can take advantage of that speed (and eSATA doesnt support bus power, so FW800 is the way to go for me).

I will mostly be interested in FW800 bus powered enclosures

I am running a macbook pro and leopard btw.

I hear ya on the loudness, though I usually compose via MIDI and don't do a whole lot of audio recordings. But it would definately be an issue for the few times that I do decide to do vocals or strings or whatever.

of the 2.5" enclosures you posted, I liked the SATAPro SS-PRO25A SATA Enclosure the best.

I am a little concerned about heat, the Gtech enclosure seems really nice because of its built in heatsink and the feet that lift it off of whatever its placed on. An all aluminum enclosure would be preferred because at least the enclosure can dissipate the heat.

[gramarye]

Excellent comprehensive post!! I agree about the miniXpress logo being huge, it bothers me too. but I did like the 4-interface ability..

it seems that 3.5" drives are hard or impossible to run via bus power, so I will definately stick with a 2.5" drive. also, I am pretty sure I want an SATA drive... 150 or 300 probably doesnt matter since only eSATA can take advantage of that speed (and eSATA doesnt support bus power, so FW800 is the way to go for me).

I will mostly be interested in FW800 bus powered enclosures

I am running a macbook pro and leopard btw.

I hear ya on the loudness, though I usually compose via MIDI and don't do a whole lot of audio recordings. But it would definately be an issue for the few times that I do decide to do vocals or strings or whatever.

of the 2.5" enclosures you posted, I liked the SATAPro SS-PRO25A SATA Enclosure the best.

I am a little concerned about heat, the Gtech enclosure seems really nice because of its built in heatsink and the feet that lift it off of whatever its placed on. An all aluminum enclosure would be preferred because at least the enclosure can dissipate the heat.

the 3.5", it is possible to be buspowered, but it is highly unrecommended. Like I mentioned before, 2.5" is strongly preferred. Even on the G-Tech website, they mention that as well.

a MacBook Pro nice...I'm saving up for one right now. I hear ya on the heat dissipation. For external enclosures, aluminum shell/chassis is a must. I believe all of the ones I provided are full aluminum, and as much as there's no heatsink, it should be fine. There's no fan as well. They make a great handwarmer on the cold nights. Anyway, I've used one of the drives I've listed, plus 2 other drives (vantec nexstar-3, cooler master x-craft), they're all full aluminum with no fan. The X-Craft, however, has holes on the bottom, but as far as temperature, I think they were all in the same general area. My first experience, I felt the hard drive and I felt it was too hot, I called Vantec, they said it's supposedly supposed to be, because that's where the heat is going to travel to.

Let me know what you eventually decide on, and hard drive? whats your budget?

[gramarye]

The, SATAPro SS-PRO25A SATA Enclosure, looks nice. It's nice how they provide all the cables you'll ever need.

the 3.5", they might have a fan (might be loud though)

I bought this 2.5" Western Digital 120gb Passport drive from Best Buy for $60, I realized it's a plastic enclosure. It's warm, but I believe it does the job, and should not worry sincethose things are sold in the mass market, and has had good reviews, so probably the aluminum enclosures you'd choose would work even better. I think 2.5" hard drives are a lot cooler than 3.5" drives.
http://img.clubic.com/photo/00359292.jpg
^I was anticipating aluminum with a black mirror finish when I saw that, when I received it and realized it was plastic instead, I was a bit disappointed, but still a great product, and cool enough (temp wise). Just something to consider, if the above temperatures might be a big concern.

[Old Hippie]

I've been playing with externals for a long time, so just a few random comments.

1) You can't run a 3.5" on buss power
2) SATA1 & 2 HDs have the same speeds
3) The SS-PRO25A looks like a fine choice, it even comes with a 110 adaptor
4) If you're going to run a 200GB or larger HD, it would be a wise move to buy a Y cable (http://www.cooldrives.com/usb-power-cable-mini-b.html). Many lappies have a hard time powering the larger drives on one USB connection.

Good Luck!

[darkecho_]

I am beginning to wonder if I should get a bus powered drive after all...

Reason being, I am sure that the bus powered drive is going to suck power from my laptops battery quite fast. And though the idea of writing on the fly is very amusing, I thought about it, and when I am writing music, I am generally sitting somewhere for a long time (office or home) where there is an abundance of power outlets.

I do use my laptop often where there are no power outlets, but i am usually not programming music at that time.

there is really only one main reason that I wanted a bus-powered drive, because I dont want to find myself stranded when i get a chance to write something, and all of my sample libraries are on a hard disk that requires power and I dont have access to it....

maybe I can be satisfied with using a built in drum set until I can connect to my drive, pull up the proper program and samples, and go from there.

I will have to get used to freezing my tracks often, so that they are audio and not midi (which would require that I have that external drive connected and powered to even play)

another thing is that powered external drives allow me to get a cheaper/bigger/faster 3.5" drive which would destroy portability (because my backpack is only so big and a 3.5" enclosure will surely not fit.

so I am at a crossroads now..

portability, music anywhere (even though its not often that I need to write music where there isnt power supplied), fit into m backpack

or ditch the mobility aspect and figure out a way to leave the external drive at home for use when I need it, and save the midi regions as audio so that I can hear it later when I am not connected to the drive...

[gramarye]

2) SATA1 & 2 HDs have the same speeds


Good Luck!

Thanks for sharing your input to this discussion! :D I understand that SATA and SATAII HDs have the same speed, is it because it's based on the inital output, which is limited by whichever speed you choose, like esata, firewire, usb.

But if you're saying SATA and SATAII hard drives are the same speeds, then i'm lost. if you can, explain some more, if the differences are based on little benchmarks and experience, I see. I'm about to buy a new sata drive myself, and considering a 750gb. Since everything is mostly SATAII out in the market these days, i guess it wouldn't matter.

Aren't SATA = 1.5 gb/s vs. SATA-II = 3.0 gb/s?

Thanks, look forward to learning more about this.

[gramarye]

I am beginning to wonder if I should get a bus powered drive after all...

Reason being, I am sure that the bus powered drive is going to suck power from my laptops battery quite fast. And though the idea of writing on the fly is very amusing, I thought about it, and when I am writing music, I am generally sitting somewhere for a long time (office or home) where there is an abundance of power outlets.

I do use my laptop often where there are no power outlets, but i am usually not programming music at that time.

there is really only one main reason that I wanted a bus-powered drive, because I dont want to find myself stranded when i get a chance to write something, and all of my sample libraries are on a hard disk that requires power and I dont have access to it....

maybe I can be satisfied with using a built in drum set until I can connect to my drive, pull up the proper program and samples, and go from there.

I will have to get used to freezing my tracks often, so that they are audio and not midi (which would require that I have that external drive connected and powered to even play)

another thing is that powered external drives allow me to get a cheaper/bigger/faster 3.5" drive which would destroy portability (because my backpack is only so big and a 3.5" enclosure will surely not fit.

so I am at a crossroads now..

portability, music anywhere (even though its not often that I need to write music where there isnt power supplied), fit into m backpack

or ditch the mobility aspect and figure out a way to leave the external drive at home for use when I need it, and save the midi regions as audio so that I can hear it later when I am not connected to the drive...

That's why I have an externals for each purpose ;) which I learned can be pretty essential. I love the idea of portability and taking your tools wherever/whenever you need to easily access it, but for me (we both work differently), a focused quiet environment (oftentimes secluded), would be a clean room with no distractions. If i was in the mountains trying to get samples of natures, like sounds of birds chirping, the trees moving, or sounds of specific objects, I would need all my gear, and portability is a must. (I read that solar power might be a concept)

Anyway, sorry I got a bit off topic there, have 2 externals, or whatever is on your budget. If you can afford a $300+ G-Tech G-Drive, by all means, you can have one 2.5" and one 3.5". It does sound like portability is priority, so I'd say try a 2.5". If you're concerned about bus power (I was at first), like i mentioned in my above post, I bought a 120gb Western Digital Passport (2.5") from Best Buy for $60. It's an external hard drive (w/ enclosure + WD drive). It's only USB but it's fast, reliable, and affordable. The looks of it are okay, and like i said before, it's a plastic enclosure, but most importantly, it WORKS, and to me, that's all that matters. I'm actually kind of amazed how more reliable it's been compared to the 3.5" plugged via AC Adapter. And it seems faster as well. It doesn't generate that much or any heat at all. It does not come with any ac adpater (there's not even a port for one), nor does it have some sort of option to power via y-cable. I don't think it has taken too much power, but then again, i'm on a desktop computer. (my iMac takes only about 140 watts, which can be comparable to a high-intensity laptop)

Hope it helps, keep the questions coming, I think i'm learning more and it can be quite beneficial, i'm debating what my next external hard drive should be as well.

[Old Hippie]

I am beginning to wonder if I should get a bus powered drive after all...

I would hate it if I knew that I have stifled any creative process. :rolleyes: For all I know, you could use a 4GB flash drive. :D



Thanks, look forward to learning more about this.
OK. SATA1 & 2 speeds are theoretical limits (http://www.serialata.org/esata.asp). Burst speeds for the internally connected SATA1 drives are barely SATA1 specs (1.5 gb/s). Burst speeds mean very little.
I'm reallly not sure why people are confused with this. Just because the highway speed limit is 150 or 300, doesn't mean your car will go that fast. Consider yourself lucky if your single engine car will go 90.

[darkecho_]

Ok, so I want to house all of my samples and audio content on an external disk right.

I think I may have met a compromise between portability and creativity.

How about keeping all of your libraries and audio content on a seperate drive (not bus powered, just a nice fast cheap drive in a good enclosure), then, say you are working on a song that requires the piano and drum plugins. You copy over just the samples that that song requires to your disk and tell the program to run them from the system disk. Viola, you can have your cake and eat it too because you are copying over a few hundred megs at most, so you can edit on the go (say there is a drum part you suddenly think of. you can still change things because you dont have to freeze the midi data to audio since the samples are stored on your drive temporarily.) but you dont have to have ALL of the samples on the disk.

Taken a step further, using a 2-ext hdd setup, one could buy the cheap big drive to house everything for literal storage, while you use a smaller, bus-powered drive to hold the "current" samples necessary. (this way you can afford to buy a smaller external drive because they are so expensive.)

I guess it really starts to come down to just how much space you need?

Battery 3 Drum Sampler = 12GB
Ivory Piano Sampler = 40GB
Extra Content for Logic Pro 8 = 40GB
Industrial Sample Library = 8GB
I would probably need another 40GB to house my audio projects for backup as well

so we are looking at 140GB of space. So it looks like a 200GB 2.5" would work.

I dont exactly have the cash to buy two drives unfortunately. Perhaps I should get the 2.5" drive now and if I buy some more software in the future that requires more space than I have, I can then buy the big 3.5 for use as a holding tank. Or just a bigger bus-powered drive...

So even though I don't regularly work in a place lacking power outlets, it would be nice to only have to plug in my computer and let the external drive suck the juice.

Here is another issue alltogether.

I will be buying a Firewire interface for my audio, can I run two bus-powered firewire things on my macbook pro? or will that just be too much power hungry?

[darkecho_]

I got so tired of thinking about everything, and the concept of multiple firewire devices abusing the bus power abilities of my new laptop frightens me, I just ordered a drive.

I bought the OWC 500GB 7200RPM 16MB Mercury Elite External Drive for $230.

I know I could have purchased the peices and put it together cheaper, but the drive they use in this external (Maxtor MaXLine Pro 500) did well in some benchmarks I looked at, and I wanted to just order one thing from one place.

The Aluminum chassis should dissipate heat well and it looks rather nice (especially matching my MBP's shell). The drive that comes with it seems to do well in reviews and I think the price is pretty good. The unit as a whole also got great reviews on several sites.

I plan on storing the bulk of my material on this drive for heavy editing and writing. When I am on the go and want to work on a song (which isn't really that often anyways) I can drag the specific files for that song onto my system disk and play-away. I don't think this will stifle my creative flow much with this plan, though I am sacrificing the performance of having the samples being accessed via an external drive, I will get to take advantage of that when I am in my studio, connected to the external drive.

I am considering using my USB key for storing the temporary samples as well (2GB Cruzer) which may or may not be a good idea. I will just have to try it out.

One main reason I got logic instead of cubase for this MBP is because Logic doesnt require a dongle. Well the hard drive is sort of a dongle, so I like the idea of keeping the temp-samples on the system disk when needed, but otherwise, keeping the MBP excess weight down (data wise).

In the future, I may invest in a small bus powered drive to store the files temporarily on, but only use it when i am out (this way only one bus powered device is sucking off of my laptop)

I think that having the external bus powered drive performance gains would be negated by the fact that I simply wouldnt be able to edit for as long (due to it draining the batt).

[Old Hippie]

Darkecho, it's been a pleasure discussing options and situations with someone as well spoken and aware of their current needs as yourself.
However, my sole purpose in this thread was to persuade you to "Roll Yr' Own" external drive instead of buying a prebuilt unit.


As you can see.......
I bought the OWC 500GB 7200RPM 16MB Mercury Elite External Drive for $230.


I have failed miserably!!!!!!!


Bummer! :D


Good Luck!

[darkecho_]

I know! and it is odd of me (personality wise) to not build my own..

I dont know whats gotten into me after all these years of building my own rigs and what not.. I guess I just got lazy this time =)

Thanks a lot to gramarye/oldhippie for the assistance.
I think I will build my next drive (which will most likely be a 2.5 bus powered)

talk to you all again soon!

[gramarye]

I have failed miserably!!!!!!!




Unfortunately, I, as well. It was a nice talk though.