vista now or wait for vista SP1

[FanMasta]

Should I go with vista now or wait for Vista SP1 & companies to update their programs for vista?
I been hearing ppl saying only pro of the vista is eye candy like the one you can see in linux for free.
And lot of cons, like some programs don't work with vista yet and it runs slow, lots of bugs.
Is it faster than xp?
How would my system run on it?

CPU: E6600@3.6ghz
MOBO: p5w dh dlx
RAM: 2gb G.skill PC2-6400
GPU: 8800GTS@650/1000
HD: Raptor 150gb

opinions would be appreciated.

[djnes]

You really don't need to ask how it would run on your system, as that topic has been covered quite a bit. You won't have any trouble, let's put it that way.

As far as compatibility, I'm not sure why people even post that question, considering no one else knows what is on their system and how it's used. You do, so you should check the availability of your drivers and the compatibility of the applications you use. Microsoft has an Upgrade Advisor Tool that will take a lot of the guesswork out of it.

[Lord_Malone]

For now it's good old fashioned trial and error. I've had minor problems running a few apps and very minimal hardware conflicts so far, but for the most part Vista is running smooth on my machine (E6600, 2gb RAM, 250gb HD)

I will add that my machine is a dedicated digital image processor and web surfer. No gaming or anything like like.

[Catweazle]

You've obviously got a capable system. You'll likely not be planning to use XP for another 3 years or more, until the next Windows version is released. No point in not trying out Vista right now. Bung it on as a dual-boot and see if it suits your purposes to make the change right now, or if you perhaps need to wait a while before fully changing over. In that latter event you'll have a head start. Waiting for a service pack isn't going to alter anything if it is device driver and software incompatibilities which are your hiccup.


I bunged Vista on as a dual-boot, and very quickly found myself hardly booting into XP at all. Nero gave me some headaches, so I found a suitable freebie alternative on a magazine cover disk to use for the time being. (Nero will work, but it's a PITA).

As a matter of fact the only thing I find myself launching XP for at present is to make backups of copy-protected media. Suitable apps for use under Vista are available, but I haven't yet got round to setting them up. No biggie.

[calebb]

Q: vista now or wait for vista SP1
A: Vista now.

[altcon]

eh...
I installed Vista on a new 80GB HD I added just for it.
Install went smoothly, somehow the key part got skipped and I ended up with a three day trial version. No matter i sorted that later.
So far I have installed:
Kaspersky AV, Office 2007, Visual Studio 2005, Steam, Counter Strike Source, Drivers for all of my stuff (although some things arent recognised and I have no Idea what they are), Messenger, FireFox, Daemon Tools, Winamp, Fraps.
All of the above programs work correctly. There is no loss of performance on CSS, I would even say the new firewall is great and bests my old trusty Sygate, since it lowers my ping.
My complaints are:
Boot is slower then XP. Ram usage on Boot is 200mb more then my XP install, My sound card (AUdigy 2 ZS) sounds like a 3$ POS with current Creative drivers. I have disabled Aero, its just a dumb and useless.
I don't enjoy being bugged for every thing I do, but as a security feature it MIGHT be usefull to novice end users (or make them Panic).
All in all, its just a cleaner cut XP feel to it.
Im currently dual booting in case I need something that wont work on vista, but if this trend keeps, I might just leave my XP behind.

[bbz_Ghost]

Vista now, period.

'Nuff typed.

[leSLIe]

wait till SP2 :D

[calebb]

Boot is slower then XP. Ram usage on Boot is 200mb more then my XP install,

I have disabled Aero, its just a dumb and useless.


Increase RAM usage is by design. Vista is populating your memory with data/programs you might be accessing in the near future. That's why everything is so snappy compared to XP. Read and learn. (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/windowsvista/features/details/performance.mspx)

Aero processing is offloaded to your GPU and has negligible impact on desktop performance if you are using a decent video card. It even runs pretty smooth with Intel GMA 950 onboard video.

[Tutelary]

Now.

[BIGDADDY51]

No time like the present. AS long as you either have a printer that works or buy a new one, like I did, Vista is the way to go, unless there's some APP that you ABSOLUTELY have to use, that won't run in Vista. With a new OS, it's time to upgrade yor software anyway. I just got POwer DVD7 and Nero 7.5 ,and System Mech 7 ,You can always do the dual boot, on seperate drives, if you want to.

[V99]

I would wait, its not worth it.

If your machine is running fine now and everything is working, stay with it.
Its not worth upgrading everything and then suddenly realize that some programs you use all the time don't work anymore.

Stick with XP, upgrade later when it been out for awhile. Ive had Vista, and now Im back at XP and will be staying here. Dont upgrade just for the flashy visual styles, you get over them.

[bbz_Ghost]

I would wait, its not worth it.

If your machine is running fine now and everything is working, stay with it.
Its not worth upgrading everything and then suddenly realize that some programs you use all the time don't work anymore.

Stick with XP, upgrade later when it been out for awhile. Ive had Vista, and now Im back at XP and will be staying here. Dont upgrade just for the flashy visual styles, you get over them.

The flaw in that entire line of thinking (with respects to someone that hasn't had a chance to mess with or test out Vista) is that the only way the OP will actually know how Vista works on his hardware with the software he chooses to use on a regular basis is... <drumroll please> get Vista and install it and use it.

Again, as always, the only person that can determine if Vista is right for someone is...

That person themselves.

[djnes]

I would wait, its not worth it.

If your machine is running fine now and everything is working, stay with it.
Its not worth upgrading everything and then suddenly realize that some programs you use all the time don't work anymore.

Stick with XP, upgrade later when it been out for awhile. Ive had Vista, and now Im back at XP and will be staying here. Dont upgrade just for the flashy visual styles, you get over them.

That's the kind of thinking that leads people to stay with dial-up, rather than switch to broadband, because of the hassle of switching e-mail accounts. MS has had the Upgrade Advisor available for a long time now, so there's no reason not to know ahead of time if your apps will work or not. VirtualPC 207 also offers a free solution to that matter as well. I made the leap to Vista, and I'm glad I did. So, I guess I could go around telling everyone to upgrade, but what's the point. Of course not, as bbz_Ghost has explained, no one can really tell another to upgrade or not. Just because you couldn't get it running on your system, doesn't mean everyone's having trouble and should avoid it. Many of us are running it and loving it. I'm really wondering how much time you gave it anyway, since you fall into the "it's XP but with a new UI" crowd, despite the facts.

[Nasty_Savage]

Personally, if you have a stable XP install you're happy with there's no real compelling reason to switch to Vista. But it does have some real neato features....just not sure if its worth the hassel to what you have. If your install gets borked or plan on doing a clean install I would get Vista. Yes, boot up time is a lil slower, but the hibernate mode actually works REAL well on my machine (have same mobo as the OP) So I just hit the power buton and it fires up the fans and drives and blammo....I'm at the login screen.

[digital_exhaust]

the hibernate mode actually works REAL well on my machine (have same mobo as the OP) So I just hit the power buton and it fires up the fans and drives and blammo....I'm at the login screen.

I too am absolutely thrilled about this as I was never able to get it to work reliably in XP.

I say Vista now.

[ShadowDragon]

I bunged Vista on as a dual-boot, and very quickly found myself hardly booting into XP at all.

I actually just wiped out my XP drive last night as I haven't been back in weeks. I swapped the boot drive via bios so I didn't have to mess with any boot managers.

[Catweazle]

Not probably, djnes. Definitely!

The Vista installer doesn't even do a compliance check, so how could it possibly disable anything?

The installer interacts with the install key to check for the presence of a Windows installation, verifies that it's not an invalid upgrade path (makes sure that a 'Home' version isn't being installed over the top of a 'Pro' version or Windows 2000) and offers the appropriate installation options. That's it. Only the Windows version on the drive is being checked, not its license type.

[ChingChang]

I been hearing ppl saying only pro of the vista is eye candy like the one you can see in linux for free.
And lot of cons, like some programs don't work with vista yet and it runs slow, lots of bugs.
Not true at all! The "eye candy" is probably the smallest change! :)
I've been running it for a couple weeks and have not found any program or driver that is not compatible. (I know some burning software won't work though.. I haven't bothered trying that yet)
It's not slow on decent hardware. And obviously there are going to be bugs on a new OS, but I haven't come across anything major so far!

Aero processing is offloaded to your GPU and has negligible impact on desktop performance if you are using a decent video card. It even runs pretty smooth with Intel GMA 950 onboard video.
Aero runs fine on my integrated ATI onboard video :) I've also used vista on a 1.6ghz P4 with 512MB RAM and 9800Pro. There was a lot of paging with that setup but I wasn't playing games or using other memory intensive programs so it wasn't too bad.

[altcon]

Vista seems to run everything I throw at it fine so far.
One thing though, the dual boot option is dead, Vista load menu wont boot xp anymore for me, it just goes to a blank screen and stays.
To boot XP I have to change HD prioriy in my Bios.
I suspect there are other bugs I havent hit yet....
Still over all its OK.
I will be getting more Ram..

[altcon]

That's the kind of thinking that leads people to stay with dial-up, rather than switch to broadband, because of the hassle of switching e-mail accounts. MS has had the Upgrade Advisor available for a long time now, so there's no reason not to know ahead of time if your apps will work or not. VirtualPC 207 also offers a free solution to that matter as well. I made the leap to Vista, and I'm glad I did. So, I guess I could go around telling everyone to upgrade, but what's the point. Of course not, as bbz_Ghost has explained, no one can really tell another to upgrade or not. Just because you couldn't get it running on your system, doesn't mean everyone's having trouble and should avoid it. Many of us are running it and loving it. I'm really wondering how much time you gave it anyway, since you fall into the "it's XP but with a new UI" crowd, despite the facts.
I fail to see any facts....
Vista has some nice background stuff going on, as an end user thats just plain BS.
Vista really only offers DX10 to anyone whos looking for functionality, and better security for PC NOOBS. Running a tight XP system I've had 0 problems for years, and despite having bitten the bullet, I really don't feel any advantage to using Vista...YET.
I love the "go get it" crowd, but ppl face the truth 90% of PC users have NO NEED for vista - NONE.
You think it brings something new? sure it does, but so far all it does is push the upgrade cycle for those who DIDNT NEED ANYTHING NEW. Anywho I'm sure nobody really listens when it concerns personal matters like why we need to upgrade, so good luck to all who have and gods speed to those who didnt.
bah.

[griffinhart]

I fail to see any facts....
Vista has some nice background stuff going on, as an end user thats just plain BS.
Vista really only offers DX10 to anyone whos looking for functionality, and better security for PC NOOBS. Running a tight XP system I've had 0 problems for years, and despite having bitten the bullet, I really don't feel any advantage to using Vista...YET.
I love the "go get it" crowd, but ppl face the truth 90% of PC users have NO NEED for vista - NONE.


So, it brings better security for "PC NOOBS" (which is about 90% of all PC users) but nothing for 90% of PC users? oooooh-tay

I'll admit that for a lot of people there is no pressing need to run out and get Vista, but if you're building/buying a new PC there aren't any real reasons to not get Vista either.

That said, there are several compelling reasons to go Vista. At least for me.
- I like the new UI better
- The search features are better
- Shadow Copy and Previous Version file recovery is absolutely fantastic
- The Media Center improvements
- Improved home networking
- better multi-user support (Something the Family PC needed)
- Even the Movie Maker app which works directly with MS-DVR files.

These are all features/improvements I use on a daily basis with Vista. For me, all compelling reasons to upgrade.

What I don't understand is why many people can't seem to understand that there are plenty of reasons to run Vista and instead down-play, disreguard, or even out right lie about it. I've seen more bashing Vista on false information and hear say than I have ever seen critical evaluations based on actual fact.

[Martyr]

I fail to see any facts....
Vista has some nice background stuff going on, as an end user thats just plain BS.
Vista really only offers DX10 to anyone whos looking for functionality, and better security for PC NOOBS. Running a tight XP system I've had 0 problems for years, and despite having bitten the bullet, I really don't feel any advantage to using Vista...YET.
I love the "go get it" crowd, but ppl face the truth 90% of PC users have NO NEED for vista - NONE.
You think it brings something new? sure it does, but so far all it does is push the upgrade cycle for those who DIDNT NEED ANYTHING NEW. Anywho I'm sure nobody really listens when it concerns personal matters like why we need to upgrade, so good luck to all who have and gods speed to those who didnt.
bah.
hell who needs an os? ill just use hardware switches to do what i need to do.

[djnes]

but ppl face the truth 90% of PC users have NO NEED for vista - NONE.

You want facts? Ok. Vista's better security features are for those 90% who don't know how to secure their computers, and rely on the OS to do it for them. :rolleyes: Good god. I'm declaring the official death of logic.
What I don't understand is why many people can't seem to understand that there are plenty of reasons to run Vista and instead down-play, disreguard, or even out right lie about it. I've seen more bashing Vista on false information and hear say than I have ever seen critical evaluations based on actual fact.
It's a combination of anti-MS sentiment, and just a flat out lack of effort to do any reading on their own. People like this would much rather believe the FUD they hear, instead of turn their own brains on and do some reading and comparing. A good many of these threads finally uncover the truth, that the person bashing Vista has never even used it.

[jordan12]

I used Vista for 3 weeks. The GUI is great. A lot of improvements., But I went back to XP. And for only one reason.

I had games that just hated the Nvidia drivers. They would hang, pause, or just plain not install. So I said screw it. Went back. At some point, Nvidia will resolve their driver issues, and I will go back to Vista.

And I went back not because of Vista, but only because of drivers. If that were not an issue, I would have stayed with Vista. It is awesome.

[bbz_Ghost]

I'm declaring the official death of logic.

So, we'll be seeing that "Purveyor of Logic" tag changing soon, eh?"

djnes... Pronouncer of the Death of Logic

Sorry, I couldn't let that one pass me by. :D

</off_topic>

[djnes]

jordan12, at least you knew enough to point blame in the correct direction. I was growing weary of seeing people blame Microsoft for that. Hopefully, between driver updates and game patches, those issues will be resolved.

bbz_Ghost, you might be right. Or something like Rememberer of Logic.

[jordan12]

People tend to blame the OS, when it is a lot of the time, a driver issue.

I love Vista. It has fantastic potential. It is quick, efficient, and well, gorgeous.

But the fact that good drivers are lacking still in some areas, make the difference for me..

At some point, that will change, and I go back again.

[bbz_Ghost]

I kept wanting to post this as a reply but kept forgetting, so here it is and I think it applies quite well. Some of you should catch it right off, some of you younger kids might need help - but then again:

Dark Helmet: What the hell am I looking at?
Colonel Sandurz: Now. You're looking at now sir. Everything that happens now, is happening now.
Dark Helmet: What happened to then?
Colonel Sandurz: We passed then.
Dark Helmet: When?
Colonel Sandurz: Just now. We're at now, now.
Dark Helmet: Go back to then!
Colonel Sandurz: When?
Dark Helmet: Now.
Colonel Sandurz: Now?
Dark Helmet: Now!
Colonel Sandurz: I can't.
Dark Helmet: Why?
Colonel Sandurz: We missed it.
Dark Helmet: When?
Colonel Sandurz: Just now.
Dark Helmet: When will then be now?
Colonel Sandurz: Soon.

'Nuff typed. :cool:

[djnes]

That's one of my favorite movie moments of all time. I started LOLing just playing that back in my head.

[digital_exhaust]

<snip>

Awesome!! That is 100% perfect.

[jordan12]

I am an old fogie. But dont know that movie name. Help? :-)

[digital_exhaust]

I am an old fogie. But dont know that movie name. Help? :-)

Spaceballs:)

[bbz_Ghost]

It's just the way the guy turns and says, "Soon." that floored me the most. The whole skit is hilarious, but that particular way of saying it the way he did just hit really hard.

That movie is so classic it's not even funny, and for anyone that hasn't seen it, you'll be doing yourself a favor sometime checking it out. Just don't eat before or during the viewing - you'll either throw up from laughing so hard or you'll spill the food or drinks all over yourself.

But then again, that could be fun in and of itself, eh? :D

[BIGDADDY51]

My new OEM Vista Home Premium showed up today, and FWIW, the pkg now contains The system Builders license on one side, and the OEM license on the other. Along with a BIG RED warning sticker. "If you break the seal, you agree to the terms and conditions,etc etc etc."

[Catweazle]

I fail to see any facts....
..a problem related to your powers of perception and comprehension, not a problem related to Windows Vista.
Vista has some nice background stuff going on, as an end user thats just plain BS.
..again, a problem of your perception rather than a problem of Vista. More discerning purchasers will look for the substance rather than the fluff.
Vista really only offers DX10 to anyone whos looking for functionality, and better security for PC NOOBS.
DX10 is only applicable to PC gaming. There are plenty of other new features which don't impact on gaming, but which do impact on productivity. Sorry to break the news, but not everybody's computer time is dominated by PC games ;)
Running a tight XP system I've had 0 problems for years, and despite having bitten the bullet, I really don't feel any advantage to using Vista...YET.
I love the "go get it" crowd, but ppl face the truth 90% of PC users have NO NEED for vista - NONE.
You completely miss the point. Almost all competent PC users have had little to no problems whilst running XP. XP (or perhaps 2000) introduced stability and reliability to the Windows PC platform. The choice to move to Vista is one taken because a person WANTS to make the change, not because the person NEEDS to make the change.
You think it brings something new? sure it does, but so far all it does is push the upgrade cycle for those who DIDNT NEED ANYTHING NEW.[/QUOTE]
I'm typing this on a system which was built about a year ago, with Windows Vista specifically in mind. Since installing Vista I've added nothing other than another 1Gb of RAM, which is an addition I'd intended to make from the outset. I'm using the Vista features which I wanted, and they are adding to my productivity and ease of use.

Your argument doesn't hold, I'm afraid.

[drizzt81]

Should I go with vista now or wait for Vista SP1 & companies to update their programs for vista?That question is best answered by yourself.

Q: vista now or wait for vista SP1
A: Vista now.

What he is trying to say: "it's your choice".

[0ptional]

*bleh*

[BIGDADDY51]

As said by the above poster, you should check out what software you run often and what software you need and it's compatiblity/performance with Vista.

Vista can be found all over the torrent networks, and MSFT has built in the ability to use the OS for 14 days without the need to input a CD-key or activate the OS.

So, downloading the software with the intention of piracy is illegal, but downloading it to use the MS imposed trial system is not as illegal, or rather more of a grey-area.

What do you have to lose by dual-booting with a Vista system besides a bit of time waiting for it to download?

You should do this and try out the software you use/need and see if Vista is right for you or if the compatibility is there yet.The beta program has long been closed. Any downloading of Vista thru MS channels, is going to be a purchase,since they no longer offer the free downloads that were beta. The only way you can test drive it now, is if you have a copy of RC1 or 2, and the cd key that goes with it.

[BIGDADDY51]

As said by the above poster, you should check out what software you run often and what software you need and it's compatiblity/performance with Vista.

Vista can be found all over the torrent networks, and MSFT has built in the ability to use the OS for 14 days without the need to input a CD-key or activate the OS.

So, downloading the software with the intention of piracy is illegal, but downloading it to use the MS imposed trial system is not as illegal, or rather more of a grey-area.

What do you have to lose by dual-booting with a Vista system besides a bit of time waiting for it to download?

You should do this and try out the software you use/need and see if Vista is right for you or if the compatibility is there yet.The beta program has long been closed. Any downloading of Vista thru MS channels, is going to be a purchase,since they no longer offer the free downloads that were beta. The only way you can test drive it now, is if you have a copy of RC1 or 2, and the cd key that goes with it. Besides, any OTHER download, is most likely a copy of a beta, and is not really gonna be a true
way to evaluate Vista., because of it not being RTM.

[bbz_Ghost]

As said by the above poster, you should check out what software you run often and what software you need and it's compatiblity/performance with Vista.

Vista can be found all over the torrent networks, and MSFT has built in the ability to use the OS for 14 days without the need to input a CD-key or activate the OS.

So, downloading the software with the intention of piracy is illegal, but downloading it to use the MS imposed trial system is not as illegal, or rather more of a grey-area.

What do you have to lose by dual-booting with a Vista system besides a bit of time waiting for it to download?

You should do this and try out the software you use/need and see if Vista is right for you or if the compatibility is there yet.

This entire post smacks of warez discussion and methinks it might be best if you edited the content to be a bit less "directional" in telling people exactly how to get it.

Microsoft did not build in a "trial period;" the 30 days - not 14 - is a grace period of sorts to make sure it's working on your equipment in case you need to upgrade something to ensure full compatibility with the OS, and then do the activation thereby tying the OS directly to the fully compatible hardware.

It's not a trial version, so it would be nice if people stop spreading that idea around. Sure, you're getting to "try it" and see if it works on your hardware or whether you need to spend some more money to get the proper components, but Microsoft itself doesn't refer to it as a "trial period."

If you weren't part of the beta program, or you didn't participate in the customer/consumer level beta test that was wide open to anyone for a brief period of time (meaning you signed up and got a beta/RC product key directly from Microsoft), acquiring or possessing a copy of any of the code is "warez," period.

<We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread, hoping it doesn't get locked down because of the post quoted above, but but but...>

[0ptional]

*bleh*

[bbz_Ghost]

But the point is: discussion of such things here is against the rules and anytime it comes up the thread with the content dies, so... you figure it out. This isn't a knock against BitTorrent or related or similar technologies: it's a knock against you saying "Hey, if you wanna try out Vista, go download it" which implies illegality unless you say "Go buy it from some online source like Windows Marketplace and download it."

Big difference there. Huge.

[ShadowDragon]

a lot of businesses actually use Torrent networks to distribut their content, rare, but it does happen.

I'm confused, which is it, a lot or rare?

"It's okay officer, a lot of people use the roads without speeding, but I just wanted to try the roads out at my cars top speed."

[0ptional]

Can I not just say that the only way to know if Vista is for you is to try it and not have everybody rip my posts to pieces trying to flame how I say things?

Geez I'm sorry I told him he could get Vista and try it and if he didn't like it, to get rid of it, or if he liked it, to go out and buy it.

[bbz_Ghost]

That's the point: he can go out and buy it, and if he's not happy with it or he doesn't agree with the terms of the EULA, he can actually return it - he might encounter some grief with the return, but if the retailer he buys it from doesn't give him a refund, Microsoft will.

It's not a one-time-you're-fucked thing; the EULA flat out says this, so in places that honor the EULA (North America primarily, a lot of other countries as well) if he's not satisfied with it he can get a refund, period.

Or he can spend a lot of time in a store demoing the OS, also. Either way, it doesn't cross that fine line that gets people into trouble - and threads locked.

[0ptional]

That's the point: he can go out and buy it, and if he's not happy with it or he doesn't agree with the terms of the EULA, he can actually return it - he might encounter some grief with the return, but if the retailer he buys it from doesn't give him a refund, Microsoft will.

It's not a one-time-you're-fucked thing; the EULA flat out says this, so in places that honor the EULA (North America primarily, a lot of other countries as well) if he's not satisfied with it he can get a refund, period.

Or he can spend a lot of time in a store demoing the OS, also. Either way, it doesn't cross that fine line that gets people into trouble - and threads locked.

Well lets say he buys it at Costco, a store with a return policy that doesn't suck ass, then it'll all be good; but sometimes it's easier to ignore the store policy bullshit if your intentions are pure.

I'm trying to not incriminate the OP and say, hey, be honest, here's a way to get it and try it and not have to hastle about it.

[drizzt81]

It's not a one-time-you're-fucked thing; the EULA flat out says this, so in places that honor the EULA (North America primarily, a lot of other countries as well) if he's not satisfied with it he can get a refund, period.

Let's see if we can return Vista Home Edition (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/home/eula.mspx) according to the EULA:
YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE SOFTWARE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL, COPY, OR USE THE SOFTWARE; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND, IF APPLICABLE
This means that after we install it we are bound by the EULA. Since we must install Vista to test whether Vista ``is right for me'', our only recourse -in the USA- is that the EULA allows me to return the software.

The rest of the EULA makes no mention of a `satisfaction guarantee' or any return period at all. After installing it once, the user cannot return the software, unless the retailer accepts returns on software. I doubt that.

[0ptional]

Let's see if we can return Vista Home Edition (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/home/eula.mspx) according to the EULA:

This means that after we install it we are bound by the EULA. Since we must install Vista to test whether Vista ``is right for me'', our only recourse -in the USA- is that the EULA allows me to return the software.

The rest of the EULA makes no mention of a `satisfaction guarantee' or any return period at all. After installing it once, the user cannot return the software, unless the retailer accepts returns on software. I doubt that.

Betcha Costco would take it back; they take everything back. God I love that place.

[bbz_Ghost]

The second line there in two parts isn't a conditional clause, it's two completely independent statements - this sort of legalese has been shot down in the courts before and always will be. But whatever... if the person wasn't part of the beta program, didn't sign up for the public betas when they were offered, or provided Microsoft with the info they request in some way, shape, or form to get the product key to install and use the beta software they're not entitled to it, period.

Just because everybody and his little brother is now peddling off beta copies of Vista on fleaBay and Craig's List and other such websites doesn't make any of it legal, nor does someone saying "Hey man, go grab a beta copy of Vista from some BitTorrent tracker and check it out for yourself."

Not only is that still against the "rules," as it were, telling someone to go use a beta copy (even RC2) to see how the OS performs is pointless since the RTM is vastly improved even over the last beta, RC2.

Bleh... I'll get off the soapbox now... I just hate seeing decent threads get killed because someone slips up and does or says something they know they shouldn't around here, that's all.

[Catweazle]

Can I not just say that the only way to know if Vista is for you is to try it and not have everybody rip my posts to pieces trying to flame how I say things?

Geez I'm sorry I told him he could get Vista and try it and if he didn't like it, to get rid of it, or if he liked it, to go out and buy it.


The type of response you've received shits me to tears to be quite honest. You're NOT encouraging piracy and shouldn't be accused of doing so.


Hell, people can even borrow a copy from a friend and install it on their system to trial the thing, so long as it isn't ever activated and is only used fopr the grace period. The license hasn't really been enacted until the Vista installation is activated, after all. There are other methods of testing the thing out rather than purchasing the blasted thing, and any explanation which neglects that fact is an incomplete explanation.

[ShadowDragon]

the RTM is vastly improved even over the last beta, RC2.
QFT. They took out all the debug code, fixed most of the bugs people complained about and it's much faster than it was in the late Beta days.

[0ptional]

The type of response you've received shits me to tears to be quite honest. You're NOT encouraging piracy and shouldn't be accused of doing so.


Hell, people can even borrow a copy from a friend and install it on their system to trial the thing, so long as it isn't ever activated and is only used fopr the grace period. The license hasn't really been enacted until the Vista installation is activated, after all. There are other methods of testing the thing out rather than purchasing the blasted thing, and any explanation which neglects that fact is an incomplete explanation.

That's what I'm trying to say... I'm being totally honest about this... oh gosh.

The second line there in two parts isn't a conditional clause, it's two completely independent statements - this sort of legalese has been shot down in the courts before and always will be. But whatever... if the person wasn't part of the beta program, didn't sign up for the public betas when they were offered, or provided Microsoft with the info they request in some way, shape, or form to get the product key to install and use the beta software they're not entitled to it, period.

Just because everybody and his little brother is now peddling off beta copies of Vista on fleaBay and Craig's List and other such websites doesn't make any of it legal, nor does someone saying "Hey man, go grab a beta copy of Vista from some BitTorrent tracker and check it out for yourself."

Not only is that still against the "rules," as it were, telling someone to go use a beta copy (even RC2) to see how the OS performs is pointless since the RTM is vastly improved even over the last beta, RC2.

Bleh... I'll get off the soapbox now... I just hate seeing decent threads get killed because someone slips up and does or says something they know they shouldn't around here, that's all.

Been around here since 2003 (I see you've only been here since 2006), and I know it happens, but I'm not trying to get banned or get anybody in trouble, I'm giving him pretty much the *only* option and it sucks that it *IS* the only option.

It's not my fault we can't test this software in it's final form before putting our hard earned dollars into it.

Besides that, Costco ftw.

[bbz_Ghost]

Hell, people can even borrow a copy from a friend and install it on their system to trial the thing, so long as it isn't ever activated and is only used fopr the grace period.

You're advocating piracy with that statement because it and the following statement:

The license hasn't really been enacted until the Vista installation is activated, after all.

both fly directly in the face of the quote from the EULA drizzt81 specifically chose above:

YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE SOFTWARE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL, COPY, OR USE THE SOFTWARE; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND, IF APPLICABLE.

Relevant parts bolded for em-faaaaa-sis. Sooo... you figure it out.

I'm out of this now, since this thread has gone entirely too far off-topic to save, hell it's gone off-forum for that matter. :D

[JVC]

vista now. but what edition? people say 64bit is faster, better. i think the 32bit edition is faster. (i use the 64bit). anyone agree? or not?

[drizzt81]

The second line there in two parts isn't a conditional clause, it's two completely independent statements - this sort of legalese has been shot down in the courts before and always will be. But whatever...
I am not familiar with consumer rights in the USA. I would say that going to court over this issue is quite a hurdle, for just wanting to try out software. It'd be nice if MS would offer me a trial, like they do for server 2k3.
if the person wasn't part of the beta program, didn't sign up for the public betas when they were offered, or provided Microsoft with the info they request in some way, shape, or form to get the product key to install and use the beta software they're not entitled to it, period. Don't get me wrong. I am not excusing or condoning piracy. I am sorry if my post came across like that. I am merely saying that goodie-two-shoes Microsoft does not provide any form of `tryout' period for their retail software. I do not know if they have a 180 day trial online.

Betcha Costco would take it back; they take everything back. God I love that place.
They may, I do not know. I am not familiar with US consumer protection laws, I know for sure that in Germany in the 1990's the law did not provide any protection to a consumer, who wanted to return opened or used software.

[Catweazle]

The law here in Australia basically means that if you've opened it then you're screwed.

I have noit come across circumstances in which "try it out and return for refund" applies for consumers. If you've opened the package then you've got the install code, which is basically what you buy when you purchase a license. MS make it REAL hard to return opened goods, and most retailers will refuse to refund if the package seal has been broken.


I believe, strongly, that the advice to buy it and then return for refund later if you don't like it is EXTREMELY poor advice to consumers, to be quite honest!

Breaking the package seal constitutes using it. A link to a location where terms and conditions can be read is provided on the outside of the package. Opening the seal constitutes agreeance.

[bbz_Ghost]

Look at it this way with respects to a "trial edition" of Vista:

Windows Server 2003 R2 (and the original version) are available in 180 day trial editions. That's a little over 750MB of downloads - it comes on two CDs: the first is about 532MB, the second is about 122MB.

The primary market for Win2K3 is the business sector, not consumers - and this is incredibly important here, so Microsoft bases the "trial edition" on that concept: a business is interested, wants to see what the OS works like, how it might fit into their organization, and is well aware that a business even considering such a move is already spending time, effort, manpower, and most of all money for the consideration process.

Compare that to Joe Average Enthusiast who heard Win2K3 is a kickass high performance OS he can actually use on his workstation with a little tweaking and setup - I know it can, because I myself and thousands of others have done it and continue to do it daily.

Now, Joe Average Enthusiast wouldn't consider paying $600 or more for a server OS - but businesses would. Microsoft really doesn't make money on consumers, they make money on businesses that not only typically buy thousands upon thousands of copies of the desktop OS like XP or now Vista, or 2K in the past, but they also fork over the costs associated with the server OSes that form the backbones of their entire corporate infrastructure(s).

So, the last part of this dilemma goes back to the CD ISOs you download.

Compare the amount of people that would/will/continue to grab the Win2K3 trial edition - say for this discussion 100,000 people a month - at roughly 750MB of download bandwidth.

Now contrast that with the amount of people that would make every possible effort to download Vista - either the 32 bit DVD ISO clocking in at roughly 2.5GB or the 64 bit DVD ISO clocking in at rougly 3.5GB in size - and factor in the bandwidth costs associated with probably 50 million people worldwide or even more trying to snag those ISOs off Microsoft.

See how that works? I know a lot of people think bandwidth is free nowadays since it's so relatively cheap in quantity, but even Microsoft couldn't continue to foot the bill for that. Besides, that would mean 50 million people worldwide or even more would be slamming the Windows Update servers as soon as they get those 32 bit or 64 bit trial editions of Vista installed and running.

There's a really big picture here if some of you reading this would just open your eyes, yanno. :) It's not just "don't pirate software" or "Microsoft should let me test it out before I have to buy it." It goes much deeper than that, especially from a monetary standpoint and a business decision.

[Catweazle]

How'd we get to Server 2003?

You've been telling people to go buy retail Vista, try it out and then return it for a refund if they don't like it. Stop changing the subject. People can't do what you've been telling them to do because once the package seal is broken it can't be refunded!

That's all there bloodywell is to it!

[jimmyb]

YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE SOFTWARE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL, COPY, OR USE THE SOFTWARE;

Relevant parts bolded for em-faaaaa-sis. Sooo... you figure it out.

What if you disagree with this statement? They have "cleverly" wrapped the EULA inside another license agreement. But nothing is preventing one from disagreeing with the terms that state I have to agree with the EULA.

This sort of shrink wrap licensing doesn't hold very well legally. It's tolerated because copyright law is so terribly incapable at dealing with software.

[drizzt81]

How'd we get to Server 2003?
I said that there's a 180 day trial of Win2K3 r2 available and that I do not know if MS offered a 180 day trial of Vista.

[Catweazle]

I forget the actual number of days, but if you install without entering an install key code you get a VERY limited term installation. I believe it is 14 days rather than the 30 days you get when entering a product key. That constitutes a 'trial', under anybody's definition.

Borrowing somebody else's copy and running under those conditions is NOT in breach of terms of use.

[bbz_Ghost]

How'd we get to Server 2003?

You've been telling people to go buy retail Vista, try it out and then return it for a refund if they don't like it. Stop changing the subject. People can't do what you've been telling them to do because once the package seal is broken it can't be refunded!

That's all there bloodywell is to it!

As you so eloquently put it, you're in Australia - things are different over here in the US. I didn't tell anyone to go out and buy it - all I've said is that buying it is one of a small number of legitimate ways to acquire Vista, that's it. And you can return it after you've opened the package, if need be. If the retail store or distributor that sold the product to you won't give you a refund, Microsoft will, as stated in the EULA.

The Win2K3 reference was used to make a point about why there is no trial edition of Vista and there most likely never will be, or at least one perspective on why there never will be such a thing.

[Catweazle]

The only real differences between Australian and US consumer law is that in australia consumers have more protections. And even here you cannot return the software after the seal has been broken without a helluva fight. Microsoft basically don't accept opened packages because the install key has been compromised. It's in the "otherwise use" part of the extract you quoted! You're incorrect.

[bbz_Ghost]

Whatever you say, bub. I speak from experience with my answers to questions around these parts, so, I can't help it if you can't return software, but I can, and I have, and I will always have that ability if the case arises again.

And it will, of course, but I'll handle it as always and get my money back, as always.

Case in point:

I recently owned some iMacs, one for myself, one for my Wife. We went into an Apple Store here in Las Vegas and purchased some note-taking software brand new in the retail box right off the shelf. It was sealed, with the factory shrinkwrap as well as an additional little circle of high tension tape on the top and bottom directly on the opening creases.

We got it home, tried to install it, accepted the EULA it provided, and were dismayed that the version the Apple Store still had on the shelf - v3.12 - was totally and completely incompatible with Intel based Macs; it only works on PowerPC Macs. We then went to the company website and looked for a patch of some kind that would enable the compatibility with Intel based Macs, which is what we owned.

No such luck.

The manufacturer flat out refused to create/provide a patch of any kind for Intel based Macs, and instead tried to force me as a consumer to purchase an entirely new version of their software for another $79.95 - we paid $59.95 for the v3.12 edition that was useless at that point. They weren't even offering an upgrade pricing plan for previous owners - so much for any upgrade pathways there.

I reboxed the product, returned it to the Apple Store and got hit with "We don't take software back."

I laughed, then I got serious. They tried to say "We don't sell that software in a PowerPC format" which was laughable again because I had the software, I had the Apple Store receipt in my hand, and I took 10 steps from the counter and grabbed the exact same product off the shelf to show them, "Well, it seems you do."

Their reply was "The clerk didn't know that, because all our PowerPC products are plainly labeled."

Again, they were wrong because no such warning/label/manifesto/EULA/product description/etc on the retail box - or the still shrink-wrapped box - said anything about it being only for PowerPC based Macs, nor did it mention any compatibility issues or concerns of any kind for Intel based Macs.

Needless to say, I went home with my $64 and change a few minutes later.

When I'm right, I'm right and that's all there is to it. In this case, I'm right as it relates to my own personal experience over the years.

This example I just provided was just one instance of me returning a boxed retail software product for a legitimate reason (in this case, product compatibility which could also be a reason to return Vista if necessary; Microsoft isn't going to refuse a refund because your hardware can't handle it) and getting a full refund.

Sorry if your own personal experience differs and you've had no such luck or never even made the attempt just because you were led to believe you can't return it, but that's not my experience, and I'm not alone.

'Nuff typed.

[Catweazle]

You returned Mac software so you must be correct about corrrect usage of MS software?

Riiiight!

Mate, I can browbeat store sales clerks and managers too. Doesn't make what occurs as a result formal policy in any way!


Edit:

I might seem pedantic here. But I'd like to point out that this started with people being accused of promoting piracy, and that high moral stance has now come down to an argument which is being justified by the experience of somebody who basically bullied a store into giving a refund!

No fair!

[bbz_Ghost]

So you're saying if you yourself bought a piece of software that was totally incompatible with not only your operating system but the hardware itself, didn't say anything about that particular issue on the box, left you with no reasons to think it wouldn't work on your machine, and then eventually didn't work on your machine or operating system, that you'd simply accept it as fate and write off the cost and move on? What other recourse does a consumer have but to return it for a full refund?

And here I was thinking you were a pretty smart guy.

[Catweazle]

No need to get personal.

Are you now conceding that the policy I outlined is actually correct, and that the customer needs to engage in unusually heavy-handed tactics to have a chance of getting a refund for an opened Vista retail package?

[bbz_Ghost]

"Senator, I believe I have already answered that question."

[BIGDADDY51]

The second line there in two parts isn't a conditional clause, it's two completely independent statements - this sort of legalese has been shot down in the courts before and always will be. But whatever... if the person wasn't part of the beta program, didn't sign up for the public betas when they were offered, or provided Microsoft with the info they request in some way, shape, or form to get the product key to install and use the beta software they're not entitled to it, period.

Just because everybody and his little brother is now peddling off beta copies of Vista on fleaBay and Craig's List and other such websites doesn't make any of it legal, nor does someone saying "Hey man, go grab a beta copy of Vista from some BitTorrent tracker and check it out for yourself."

Not only is that still against the "rules," as it were, telling someone to go use a beta copy (even RC2) to see how the OS performs is pointless since the RTM is vastly improved even over the last beta, RC2.

Bleh... I'll get off the soapbox now... I just hate seeing decent threads get killed because someone slips up and does or says something they know they shouldn't around here, that's all. Actually, in most respects, my copy of 5744 RC2 seems to be doing better than RTM so far. I'll let you know as I just got a OEM of HP. today. I'll still leave the beta set up for a trial box, of anything I might want to use, so I don't pork the oem install.

[BIGDADDY51]

What if you disagree with this statement? They have "cleverly" wrapped the EULA inside another license agreement. But nothing is preventing one from disagreeing with the terms that state I have to agree with the EULA.

This sort of shrink wrap licensing doesn't hold very well legally. It's tolerated because copyright law is so terribly incapable at dealing with software. I don't know where you are, but here in the good old USA, The court made MS put the Licese and the EULA on the OUTSIDE of the PKG. Break the seal? you AGREE with the terms and conditions set forth in both documents. What do you think a judges 1st question would be in court? There's even a BIG RED WARNING label on my new copy of Vista. MS is continuing to dot all the i s, and cross all the Ts, just so it will be a no brainer, when they do bring someone into court for piracy/copyright infringement. the bottom line remains the same. NOBODY is holding a gun to your head, saying you HAVE to use Vista, or any other MS product. OR that you even have to use a computer at all.:D :D